Can no longer find Eurobird1

sceh99

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THANK YOU! You have clarified a point that 10000 websites don't. Worse, I had a problem with scanning Astra and Humax tech support told me to switch off network search (the scan stopped and rebooted the decoder after 30% complete). I am now scanning and it looks like it works! Keep you posted and a pity I can't buy you a pint or three!
 

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Transponders can contain a transponder list of that particular satellite. This is what NIT or Network Search looks for. If the transponder you have selected isn't active (like 11222H) then it can't find this data.
TBH, I never took the time to find out what "Network Search" implied, and normally had it switched OFF - so thanks for the explanation :Y
 

ozumo

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I did some tests on 28.2E, network searches from both the Sky and Freesat home transponders did not find everything, both missed 11264H 27500 (music channels) as well as a few others.
 

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Well, as far as I know, the network search is provider-based?
So that different providers can allow their own transponders to be found?

I never made a study out of it, though. I just think it is a nice tool, to expand/update your transponder list, especially with insufficient or absent blind-scan facility.

Greetz,
A33
 

ozumo

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Then network search from the Sky 'home' transponder missed TPs used by the Sky service, 12285V 27500 for example. Sky have their own EPG so who knows what its actual purpose is :confused
 

sceh99

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Then network search from the Sky 'home' transponder missed TPs used by the Sky service, 12285V 27500 for example. Sky have their own EPG so who knows what its actual purpose is :confused
Is there some connection between the EPG and the transponder search list? I would have thought there needs to be a list of frequencies of transponders on a satellite and that's it. How it is really accessed is still a bit of mystery.
Does anyone have an accurate and complete technical explanation of how this all works? Having searched i just come across the same incomplete and incorrect explanations aimed at three year old's...
 

ozumo

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Sky has its own propriety EPG system and all tuning data it needs will be included within or alongside it on the same transponder.
 

sceh99

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Sky has its own propriety EPG system and all tuning data it needs will be included within or alongside it on the same transponder.
For other satellites, it does not need an EPG, just a list of the frequencies on that satellite and a decoder needs to able to access these to scan for all channels - which you then select or put into favourites. No need for an EPG.
In the case of ASTRA2 it would appear that transponder 11222 has this info because if you set network search OFF it finds just a few channels from a single frequency. Put network search ON and it scans all the frequencies transmitted by the satellite. The same ought to hold true for other satellites. Is this true? If it is, how come the thousands of satellite websites don't mention this.
I have a HUMAX TN5000HD and the rather illogical user manual says that network search OFF scans for 'transponders by default from the factory'. This of course is not true.
In the case of SKY, it seems to have a single transponder with the info you suggest but why can't they say so?
Also in the HUMAX manual they continue to bang on about Symbol Rate which is completely irrelevant. Comms systems automatically synchronise to the symbol rate and it is not as though there are different channels on the same transponder frequency depending on the symbol rate. I really get the impression that the inventors of all this are technically incompetent.
However, I have found my channels but am no closer to a proper explanation about how the transponder protocols work or the structure of the transponder information database :-(
 

sceh99

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Well, as far as I know, the network search is provider-based?
So that different providers can allow their own transponders to be found?

I never made a study out of it, though. I just think it is a nice tool, to expand/update your transponder list, especially with insufficient or absent blind-scan facility.

Greetz,
A33
I can see why a provider selling paid channels would want a private EPG and frequency list since it gives them a degree of control but for the basic satellite systems there must be a common pointer to all frequencies per satellite. It would be possible for decoder to have a start frequency for a satellite and then scan all frequencies incrementally but this would be slow and cost bandwidth. Most providers have very few channels so the expense of an EPG for them is not worth it.
 

ozumo

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For other satellites, it does not need an EPG, just a list of the frequencies on that satellite and a decoder needs to able to access these to scan for all channels - which you then select or put into favourites. No need for an EPG.
In the case of ASTRA2 it would appear that transponder 11222 has this info because if you set network search OFF it finds just a few channels from a single frequency. Put network search ON and it scans all the frequencies transmitted by the satellite. The same ought to hold true for other satellites. Is this true? If it is, how come the thousands of satellite websites don't mention this.
I have a HUMAX TN5000HD and the rather illogical user manual says that network search OFF scans for 'transponders by default from the factory'. This of course is not true.
In the case of SKY, it seems to have a single transponder with the info you suggest but why can't they say so?
Also in the HUMAX manual they continue to bang on about Symbol Rate which is completely irrelevant. Comms systems automatically synchronise to the symbol rate and it is not as though there are different channels on the same transponder frequency depending on the symbol rate. I really get the impression that the inventors of all this are technically incompetent.
However, I have found my channels but am no closer to a proper explanation about how the transponder protocols work or the structure of the transponder information database :-(
Your Humax will have come from the factory with a database of transponders, searching with network search off will scan these transponders only. Symbol rate is important, try a manual search with a different symbol rate, say 22000 instead of 27500 - the receiver will not scan in the channels.

There is no need for Sky to publicise how their channel lists or transponder lists work, for everyone who is viewing these channels legitimately the Sky receiver sorts everything out automatically.
It would be possible for decoder to have a start frequency for a satellite and then scan all frequencies incrementally but this would be slow
This is called blind scan and most non provider specific receivers have this function.
 

sceh99

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Your Humax will have come from the factory with a database of transponders, searching with network search off will scan these transponders only. Symbol rate is important, try a manual search with a different symbol rate, say 22000 instead of 27500 - the receiver will not scan in the channels.

There is no need for Sky to publicise how their channel lists or transponder lists work, for everyone who is viewing these channels legitimately the Sky receiver sorts everything out automatically.

This is called blind scan and most non provider specific receivers have this function.
Thanks for the complete reply. My Humax scans one transpondeur only with the network search off - unless I screwed somehow.
As for symbol rate, I always thought comms systems automatically detected and synchronised to different rates so I am a bit perplexed.
My receiver is not provider specific but only scans all when network if ON though I can't see which frequencies it tries
 

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Network (NIT) searching is a useful tool, but is only as good as the data given within the downlink. Additionally not all satellites have them operational and often there will be no data within the table that covers feeds, spot beams or transponders that are used for non domestic broadcasts.

Blind scan is a manufacturers bonus to the user and can be good, bad or indifferent. A lot of time has to be spent testing and upgrading before it becomes useful beyond the auto scan which is reliant on a database of channel/bouquet parameters.

If the company is based in Asia, then unless there is an office, or a partnership with a European outlet, then there is little chance the memory database gets a useful software udate, plus when a newer model is released, the older designs will be quickly relegated to the scrapheap, even if they were good sellers
 

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I recall an issue with European Humax receiver boxes where they needed to be left on a specific channel (France 2 ? ) for a day or so in order to repopulate the list.
 

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Thanks for the complete reply. My Humax scans one transpondeur only with the network search off - unless I screwed somehow.
As for symbol rate, I always thought comms systems automatically detected and synchronised to different rates so I am a bit perplexed.
My receiver is not provider specific but only scans all when network if ON though I can't see which frequencies it tries
I was always assuming (naively) that the symbol encoding would be standardised so there would be no need for different rates. It isn't though I am not sure why. At the wrong rate the decoder will 'hear' the bits but not be able to decode them so it won't work.
 

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Ah, no. Different broadcast standards, choices of transmissions, (bouquets or single channel), tv, radio or pure data feeds, and the additional detail (subtitling / dual audio etc.) will determine what is used. Even the satellite operator and third party bandwidth negotiators will have a hand in what is bundled onto a transponder and what parameters are used.
 

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Ah, no. Different broadcast standards, choices of transmissions, (bouquets or single channel), tv, radio or pure data feeds, and the additional detail (subtitling / dual audio etc.) will determine what is used. Even the satellite operator and third party bandwidth negotiators will have a hand in what is bundled onto a transponder and what parameters are used.
Oh..
When a decoder connects to a satellite transponder, I suppose it does not connect in the classic sense by sending a request to the satellite. I would suppose it simply listens on a frequency expecting to either get a TV signal or a listing of the various types of data on the transponder. I also suppose the frequency listing is either inbuilt to the decoder or populated via this method, following which the decoder then listens on all the other transponder frequencies?
 

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The decoder for domestic services is a receiver, all one way traffic.
 

sceh99

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It is getting clearer and is at least a billion times more complex than I thought. The Bouquet Association Table (BAT), NIT and Service description table (SDT) would appear to contain all the info needed
 
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