Cavorite Gets its First Outing

Channel Hopper

Suffering fools, so you don't have to.
Staff member
Joined
Jan 1, 2000
Messages
35,608
Reaction score
8,579
Points
113
Age
59
Website
www.sat-elite.uk
My Satellite Setup
A little less analogue, and a lot more crap.
My Location
UK

Sir Bronking

Member
Joined
Nov 5, 2005
Messages
1,323
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
65
My Satellite Setup
medion
pentium4 3.2ghz
progdvb
skystar2 rev2.3
1mtr dish & jaeger 99G 36v motor, with a superjack DP-6600. dvb-t aswell,in the process of setting up
My Location
cheshire,algeria
CH, interesting reading.
read the post (which fried my brain)
sort of understood second post
so i take it stars will become like buses, i just hope ministry of transport don't have a hand in it and do the routes:-rofl2
 

Channel Hopper

Suffering fools, so you don't have to.
Staff member
Joined
Jan 1, 2000
Messages
35,608
Reaction score
8,579
Points
113
Age
59
Website
www.sat-elite.uk
My Satellite Setup
A little less analogue, and a lot more crap.
My Location
UK
bronking said:
so i take it stars will become like buses, i just hope ministry of transport don't have a hand in it and do the routes:-rofl2

More a question of hitching a ride onto a gravity wave. I will have to check more on this, as I cant see in the equation where the slowing down at the other end comes in :eek: .

No doubt some democratic elected numpty will devise a toll for the service, and then a congestion charge at the link up point.:rolleyes:
 

spiney

Guest
Joined
Apr 29, 2005
Messages
1,514
Reaction score
1
Points
0
My Satellite Setup
Pace 2200 Sky digibox with ftv card, Comag SL65 FTA sat receiver, 40cm Sky minidish, Setpal terrestrial receiver (for free uk tv only!).
My Location
Midlands
Hey, hang on a moment .....

1) "Cavorite" has nothing to do with it (being a physically impossible notion that contradicts the conservation of energy, one of the "soundest" physical principles we know!).

(HG's moon trip wasn't so much "sci fi", but more like disguised social criticism! Unlike his other sci fi novels, which actually were sci fi! Cavorite was just a "plot device", not to be taken seriously!).

What's being suggested here is a "theoretically possible" method of very rapidly accelerating a spacecraft to almost lightspeed, without crushing the occupants (eg, see Larry Niven's Neutron Star, and Hal Clement's Mission of Gravity).

But, conservation of energy still holds, and anyway you've first got to find a "convenient mass", and then approach it at 57% the speed of light ........
 

Channel Hopper

Suffering fools, so you don't have to.
Staff member
Joined
Jan 1, 2000
Messages
35,608
Reaction score
8,579
Points
113
Age
59
Website
www.sat-elite.uk
My Satellite Setup
A little less analogue, and a lot more crap.
My Location
UK
spiney said:
Hey, hang on a moment .....

What's being suggested here is a "theoretically possible" method of very rapidly accelerating a spacecraft to almost lightspeed, without crushing the occupants

Sounds like Cavorite to me;)

spiney said:
But, conservation of energy still holds, and anyway you've first got to find a "convenient mass", and then approach it at 57% the speed of light ........

Cavorite has the edge then :D
 

spiney

Guest
Joined
Apr 29, 2005
Messages
1,514
Reaction score
1
Points
0
My Satellite Setup
Pace 2200 Sky digibox with ftv card, Comag SL65 FTA sat receiver, 40cm Sky minidish, Setpal terrestrial receiver (for free uk tv only!).
My Location
Midlands
Sorry, Channel Hopper, I know I'm a truly irritating pedant, but ......

Gravity is a "conservative field", in which any object's potential is a function of position. Cavorite is impossible, because to move in a gravitational field means changing the potential, so there can't be a "gravity shield" .....

If this were not true, then "perpetual motion" would be possible (it isn't). Also, nothing could exist, because any objects in the universe would spontaneously explode ......

(The mentioned links accept this, they're not suggesting otherwise!).

(added) See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Anti-gravity ; also: http://www.kilty.com/pmredux.htm And much other stuff, just use Google .....

All applications for "perpetual motion" machine patents now have to be accompanied by a "working model" (!).

Regarding general relativity, the field equations are non linear, hence only solvable in special cases, and there's always going to be "interesting" solutions ......
 

Channel Hopper

Suffering fools, so you don't have to.
Staff member
Joined
Jan 1, 2000
Messages
35,608
Reaction score
8,579
Points
113
Age
59
Website
www.sat-elite.uk
My Satellite Setup
A little less analogue, and a lot more crap.
My Location
UK
spiney said:
Sorry, Channel Hopper, I know I'm a truly irritating pedant,

we know that :D

spiney said:
but ......
Gravity is a "conservative field", in which any object's potential is a function of position. Cavorite is impossible, because to move in a gravitational field means changing the potential, so there can't be a "gravity shield".....

If that was the case then the first idea of Felbers work, that of
identifying an energy source capable of producing the acceleration
wouldnt work.

Gravity is there in all masses that surround the item that requires shifting. The idea that moving it in a vector towards one particular mass based on its vectorial trajectory speed suggests the gravity pull of all the other objects behind and around it, are 'delayed', for 'forward' momentum, along the lines of a time delay issue. Gravitational force is no longer linked to just to distance and mass, but to distance, mass and time in any equation, where movement across distance is required.

There is nothing in Jules Vernes work to confirm that Cavorite was impaired simply by a 'gravity shield'. For the convenience of the novel (and the movie), Cavorites additional property of allowing pilots to travel in time was left off to keep the reader/viewer entertained (Mr Vern did not go into much detail on the shutter design either).

Felper has identified, in his work, what is required two stages down in space travel, the first issue is getting on board the next stage of interstellar travel, just the small issue of getting the kit up to speed to produce the extra thrust is missing (as well as the method of slowing down at the other end, but thats for later).

Even if I was able to prove that there was a gravity lift available at 1% of the speed of light, mankind would still have a few years to develop something to get on board the escalator.
Has somebody got impulse speed sorted on paper yet ?;)
 

spiney

Guest
Joined
Apr 29, 2005
Messages
1,514
Reaction score
1
Points
0
My Satellite Setup
Pace 2200 Sky digibox with ftv card, Comag SL65 FTA sat receiver, 40cm Sky minidish, Setpal terrestrial receiver (for free uk tv only!).
My Location
Midlands
Yes Channel Hopper, fair enough, I can be really irritating, and won't try to deny it! However, "fact is facts". So, although I don't want to get into a nasty argument - causing bad feelings all round - it remains true that:

1) Cavorite is physically imposssible, for the reasons I gave (also, see the above links, and many others).

2) It was suggested by HG Wells, not Jules Verne! (although, Verne's "rocket gun" would also have been impracticable, becasue it would instantly have killed his vehicle's occupants).

3) If Felber is correct (!), then for his effect to "kick in", you still need to reach roughly 60% of lightspeed first. Don't forget, as mass accelerates, it increases, a "runaway effect" effectively stopping you doing that.
(see: www.centauri-dreams.org/?p=541 ).

4) As Felber himself - and the other commentators - say, there's no magic here (Cavorite is still impossible!), the necessary energy being "donated" by the "accelerator" mass. It's a bit like the more familiar "gravity well slingshot" manoever, much mentioned in Arthur Clarke's books, and used in real life for outer solar system probes.

5) You'd need a "convenient nearby mass" (as Felber says, where are they?), and then to slow down a "reverse effect" the other end (which Felber doesn't predict!).

6) The most interesting outcome is, it's testable in particle accelerators:

(see http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/content/?id=4292 ).

In which case, since 99% lightspeed is often reached, why haven't we already seen it?
 

spiney

Guest
Joined
Apr 29, 2005
Messages
1,514
Reaction score
1
Points
0
My Satellite Setup
Pace 2200 Sky digibox with ftv card, Comag SL65 FTA sat receiver, 40cm Sky minidish, Setpal terrestrial receiver (for free uk tv only!).
My Location
Midlands
Another really irritiating habit is replying to my own posts .......

But, there's no shortage of "exotic" space travel methods, any of which MIGHT get us to the stars .....

1) Wormholes - "bridges" between the singularities inside back holes - have of course long been discussed. There's a "better chance" here, as black holes may be very commonplace, and you don't need to get 60% lightspeed first!

2) Tiny "light sail" automatic probes could use "sunlight pressure" to reach nearby stars in maybe just 10s of years. Maybe worth doing, if we know in advance there's a planetary system to look at .....

3) If I remember right, Arthur Clarke's Imperial Earth had a "mini black hole" spacecraft propulsion system, which isn't really enough for interstellar, but would get you to Pluto in maybe 2 months!

(added, see:
http://blackholes.stardate.org/resources/pop_culture/pop.php?id=13 .

Another really irritiating habit is re-editing my previous posts ... ).

And so on .....

see: www.centauri-dreams.org/ .
 

spiney

Guest
Joined
Apr 29, 2005
Messages
1,514
Reaction score
1
Points
0
My Satellite Setup
Pace 2200 Sky digibox with ftv card, Comag SL65 FTA sat receiver, 40cm Sky minidish, Setpal terrestrial receiver (for free uk tv only!).
My Location
Midlands
Another annoying thing is making long strings of posts, before anyone else has replied.

Unfortunately, Cavorite is logically impossible, because gravity is a conservative field (Newton or Einstein, it makes no difference!). To go "against the flow" you have to put in energy, which so far has meant rockets.

Logical impossibility; can God create a fence so high that he can't jump over it?
 

spiney

Guest
Joined
Apr 29, 2005
Messages
1,514
Reaction score
1
Points
0
My Satellite Setup
Pace 2200 Sky digibox with ftv card, Comag SL65 FTA sat receiver, 40cm Sky minidish, Setpal terrestrial receiver (for free uk tv only!).
My Location
Midlands
Another irritiating habit is making entirely pointless and gratuitous posts, for no good reason at all.
 

Channel Hopper

Suffering fools, so you don't have to.
Staff member
Joined
Jan 1, 2000
Messages
35,608
Reaction score
8,579
Points
113
Age
59
Website
www.sat-elite.uk
My Satellite Setup
A little less analogue, and a lot more crap.
My Location
UK
spiney said:
However, "fact is facts". - it remains true that:
2) It was suggested by HG Wells, not Jules Verne! (although, Verne's "rocket gun" would also have been impracticable, becasue it would instantly have killed his vehicle's occupants).

DOH! :-doh!

As for the rest however, facts are quite often 'for the moment' in science, as you said earlier (To go "against the flow" you have to put in energy, which so far has meant rockets.)

Cavorite is going to be with us sooner or later :D
 

spiney

Guest
Joined
Apr 29, 2005
Messages
1,514
Reaction score
1
Points
0
My Satellite Setup
Pace 2200 Sky digibox with ftv card, Comag SL65 FTA sat receiver, 40cm Sky minidish, Setpal terrestrial receiver (for free uk tv only!).
My Location
Midlands
Well, channel hopper, anyway thanks for originally mentioning Felber otherwise I - and many others - wouldn't have heard of this. And, apologies for my last post above, rather silly and infantile.

Yes, you do have to put energy in, and that's precisely why Cavorite is a theoretical impossibility (never mind Newton's 3rd law .....).

I don't think there's any "magic technology" that would give us a "star car" (last filling up point, The Oort Cloud!).

As far as I know, the only "maybe practical" interstellar propulsion system is the Bussard Ramjet. Because, above a certain speed, interstellar hydrogen becomes both fuel and propellant, and then you don't have to take these with you! That is, if we ever manage to get controlled hydrogen fusion, which we haven't so far.

This is a "beautiful concept", all done with magnetic fields, so no moving parts, and no materials to wear out!

Accelerating to halfway, then decelerating, it would be possible to reach several nearby stars within one human lifetime (although, thousands of years would pass on earth!).

Being the only "within known science" stardrive, this is popular in "realistic" sci fi, one of the best is Heinlein's Time For The Stars, and a "disaster scenario" is Pohl Anderson's Tau Zero.

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bussard_ramjet .
 

Channel Hopper

Suffering fools, so you don't have to.
Staff member
Joined
Jan 1, 2000
Messages
35,608
Reaction score
8,579
Points
113
Age
59
Website
www.sat-elite.uk
My Satellite Setup
A little less analogue, and a lot more crap.
My Location
UK
spiney said:
Yes, you do have to put energy in, and that's precisely why Cavorite is a theoretical impossibility (never mind Newton's 3rd law .....).

Professor Cavor was heating a couldron of the stuff for weeks in his greenhouse, thats where the energy came from.;)
 

Channel Hopper

Suffering fools, so you don't have to.
Staff member
Joined
Jan 1, 2000
Messages
35,608
Reaction score
8,579
Points
113
Age
59
Website
www.sat-elite.uk
My Satellite Setup
A little less analogue, and a lot more crap.
My Location
UK
It appears Mr Greg was a neighbour that sold his idea to Mr Wells. Did he live near Bromley ?
 

spiney

Guest
Joined
Apr 29, 2005
Messages
1,514
Reaction score
1
Points
0
My Satellite Setup
Pace 2200 Sky digibox with ftv card, Comag SL65 FTA sat receiver, 40cm Sky minidish, Setpal terrestrial receiver (for free uk tv only!).
My Location
Midlands

Channel Hopper

Suffering fools, so you don't have to.
Staff member
Joined
Jan 1, 2000
Messages
35,608
Reaction score
8,579
Points
113
Age
59
Website
www.sat-elite.uk
My Satellite Setup
A little less analogue, and a lot more crap.
My Location
UK
spiney said:
Must admit, I was previously unaware this author existed, so can't opine about his influence on HG, but it does seem likely.

Some interesting stuff at: www.depauw.edu/sfs/documents/reviewsdoc.htm.

Some very interesting ideas on there, it reminds me of the Scientific American magazine, about the only publication I find money well spent whenever I find I have spare time at an airport.
 

spiney

Guest
Joined
Apr 29, 2005
Messages
1,514
Reaction score
1
Points
0
My Satellite Setup
Pace 2200 Sky digibox with ftv card, Comag SL65 FTA sat receiver, 40cm Sky minidish, Setpal terrestrial receiver (for free uk tv only!).
My Location
Midlands
Top