Humax Foxsat PVR locking up on signal degradation?

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When the macro-blocks proliferate, and the chirping sets in, my Foxsat seems to stop reacting to is master. After heavey signal degradation due to heavy rain-fade, my Humax Foxsat stops reacting to remote control and front panel buttons.

Picture decoding still goes on (as best as it can be), even playing back from time-shift buffer still works. But it's like the box interface is dead. I've seen the other way around on other STBs, e.g. menus and everything, but not picture.

It's a bit worrying that a drop in signal quality can actually crash the box! (aka data-driven errors, which tends to be signs of bad programming skills from the development team).

This has happened on two occasions now. Is this known behaviour?
 

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Not heard of it before ................ but then the vast majority of Foxsat users (myself included) are using them well within Footprint, so the predisposing conditions should never occur.

I know some of our Spanish Resident Ex-pats have them, so let's hope one or more of them can chip in.
 

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Well I'm currently using one outside of footprint and the next time it rains (HAH - fat chance ATM) I'll look out for what you describe.
 
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I've only noticed this with rain, and to be fair only from CB-lined cold-fronts or low pressure induced super-cells.
But I would think any signal degradation (hand in front of LNB or similar) would do the trick...

Unless is a rain scattering thing, in which case we'd have to bring in the garden hose or similar. 8)

Actually, I'll just wait until tomorrow, then the next cold-front is set to move in...
 

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Tivù said:
the vast majority of Foxsat users (myself included) are using them
How do you rate the Foxsat? To me it seems like it hasn't got enough processing power (just changing channel seems to take an eternity) so maybe doing a lot of error correcting might take it over the edge.
 

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Excellent in virtually every respect - when compared as apples with apples ie Against other Freesat Boxes (Either PVR or non-PVR)

But Humax do seem to shoot themselves in the foot by re-introducing silly firmware bugs that they'd acctually sorted out, then throw in a couple more for good measure!

Current ones are:

a. Re-emergence of a bug whereby releasing Live Pause automatically puts subtitles on.

b. New annoyance where Guide button stops everything for 30/40 secs while it refreshes the entire EPG. Workaround is available - but it used to be fine!
 

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Huevos said:
How do you rate the Foxsat? To me it seems like it hasn't got enough processing power (just changing channel seems to take an eternity) so maybe doing a lot of error correcting might take it over the edge.
I think it has plenty of processing power; it must have to be able to record two HD streams at once whilst playing a third pre-recorded HD programme.

The slowness in channel changing (and I don't think it's THAT bad) must be down do programming. What does take time is responding to button presses and it always seems to have suffered frpm this.
 
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PaulR said:
I think it has plenty of processing power; it must have to be able to record two HD streams at once whilst playing a third pre-recorded HD programme.

Well, most of the image and audio processing stuff these days is done in hardware, ie. the DCT for MPEG decoding is on-chip straight to the image buffer. The actual transfer from hard-disk to memory and back is usually via DMA, with the CPU only involved in setting up the transfers and the decoding.

This of course all varies from chipset to chipset, and with price of chipset. Less special-purpose hardware means more work for the CPU to implement certain functions (and less time for user responsiveness). On the other hand, high-end boxes can even have multiple cores etc, just like PCs, allowing the application to run on one core, while the hardware is managed by the other.

So with the Humax box not exactly being cheap, I would care to speculate that it has quite a bit of hardware automation to do the recording and playback.

PaulR said:
The slowness in channel changing (and I don't think it's THAT bad) must be down do programming. What does take time is responding to button presses and it always seems to have suffered from this.

You do have a point - but whose programming? Box designer? Chipset manufacturer? Application programmer?

The lowest time delay incurred by changing channel is the basic cost of re-tuning. This includes setting the tuner to the new frequency, locking on to the transport stream, and demuxing the elementary streams that make up the audio and video, and feeding those to the decoders. This penalty is induced by the hardware/lowest firmware. Hard to do anything about this.

A little bit of cleverness can optimise the channel change, e.g. if changing channels within a transport stream (say, from BBC1 to BBC2), you can skip the tuning and locking step, and just change the elementary streams making up the new service. In theory, you can reduce the channel change time to the time until the next I-frame in the stream.

Similarly, if you have two available tuners, you can "cue" the other tuner to the next channel up in the channel list, so that it's already tuned when you decide to go one step further. This is a bit like double-clutch automatic gearboxes in e.g. VAG cars.

Combining the two can give quite good results. However, if the other tuner is busy, and you do change between services on different muxes, the delay will be more noticeable.

The actual control of channel change is often implemented in the box-specific middleware libraries that control the chipset and peripheral devices. These are often ports of the chip-set manufacturer's standard libraries provided with the license for the chip-set. The libraries provided are not meant to be super-optimised, but are more provided as reference. They are also written for generic designs, so that e.g. dual-tuner designs are not necessarily handled without some adaptation of the code. And that's what cost money.

The FoxSat, however, has a reasonable performance, leading me to suspect that they do employ some tricks in their firmware. For example, if recording two channels that happen to be on the same transport stream, it seems to use the same tuner for the two, as I can watch a third channel sometimes.

The real answer to fast channel changes is to have always have three tuners to watch live TV, so that you even in worst case can always go up and down at your leisure (tuner 1 on the channel you just left, tuner two on the current, and tuner three on the one up from here). Then you'd want to have at least one or two more tuners to record stuff while you watch other things.

The problem is, all extra goodies costs money, and STB design is a careful exercise to balance cost and benefit. Saving $15 on a tuner, or even $2 on less RAM means a lot when you sell millions of boxes.

Sorry for the rant. I get carried away some times... :)
 
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But back to the topic:

Software in such boxes are generally event driven. I could suspect that errors in the lock-on, demuxing or decoding could trigger an interrupt to the middleware. This would for example be an interrupt from the hardware telling the software of decoding errors, triggering the "bad or no signal" box being displayed.

Now if some part of the software was not designed to cope with continous on-slaught of events or interrupts that an almost legible, but severely degraded signal, might create; you can have stack-overflows, memory exhausts or similar things bringing things to a halt. That could take out the UI handling process, while still leaving the "automated" parts (decoding, HDD recording) still running in the background.

This is what leads me to speculate that it's the application software which isn't coping with the situation.
 
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Tivù said:
But Humax do seem to shoot themselves in the foot by re-introducing silly firmware bugs that they'd acctually sorted out, then throw in a couple more for good measure!

Current ones are:

a. Re-emergence of a bug whereby releasing Live Pause automatically puts subtitles on.

b. New annoyance where Guide button stops everything for 30/40 secs while it refreshes the entire EPG. Workaround is available - but it used to be fine!

Classical symptoms of software not being under proper configuration management (a software discipline).
 

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st1 said:
Now if some part of the software was not designed to cope with continous on-slaught of events or interrupts that an almost legible, but severely degraded signal, might create; you can have stack-overflows, memory exhausts or similar things bringing things to a halt. That could take out the UI handling process, while still leaving the "automated" parts (decoding, HDD recording) still running in the background.
The worst thing for having one process lock up the entire system is single thread software, because it can't monitor itself and shut down processes that have gone wrong.
 
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