Karen Murphy - ECJ Judgement Due/Delivered

[Lazarus]

An interesting point of view, which takes a hugely complex area and boils it down to the bare bones, but one which I fear will not stand long term scrutiny.

If it were that simple, the legal arguments would not have gone on for so long nor would there still be ambiguity or lack of clarity.

 

[Analoguesat]

I doent matter what the bar room amateur lawyers think - nothing is decided one way or the other until we get one of the cases going to court and end up with a definitive decision.

(Then wait for the inevitable appeals!)

 

[rigsby]

The legal arguments have gone on for so long because people simply don't know their rights.

It really is quite simple , but as a nation , we are conditioned into a certain way of thinking by big multi million
£ corporations & they simply use bully boy tactics to back the poor individual into a corner.

People just need to stand up for themselves & understand their rights.

All these potential court cases would be Civil matters, not Criminal (unless someone gets killed or injured) so the police can never be involved in helping the Prem League, they may attend simply to maintain order & peace, but the police cannot overstep their role & help the premier League.

Goods cannot be siezed until AFTER any court case has been heard either.

A court is simply a centre for arbitration at the end of the day & an independant judge has to discover if there is a
dispute, if there is no dispute, then the judge has to dismiss any claim.

For a dispute to arise, there HAS to be a contract between the two parties involved.

If a publican for example were to receive a letter saying this & that, he just needs to remain honorable & calm at all times, & write back asking for a copy of the contract signed by both parties, he then sits back & waits & waits, & maybe after say 14 days, there is no response, he can simply write another letter, again, trying to be honorable & wishing to resolve the matter, again asking for the signed contract, & he waits for a reply.

If no reply ever comes back, then they (Prem League) know they cannot win the case as they cannot provide a contract between themselves & the publican.
For the Premier to continue the matter, they MUST provide that signed contract.

If there is no contract, then there cannot be any dispute & it can't even ever get near a court to decide as he would
just laugh it off, & tell them to stop wasting his time.

 

[dave1979]

just make it clear,is it JUST the premier league logo and the bottom right of the screen that they are saying is the copyright!
nothing else we should think about covering up blanked out etc!!?

 

[rolfw]

The legal arguments have gone on for so long because people simply don't know their rights.

Well if it were as simple as that, then there would have been no higher courts involved.

For a dispute to arise, there HAS to be a contract between the two parties involved.

If a publican for example were to receive a letter saying this & that, he just needs to remain honorable & calm at all times, & write back asking for a copy of the contract signed by both parties, he then sits back & waits & waits, & maybe after say 14 days, there is no response, he can simply write another letter, again, trying to be honorable & wishing to resolve the matter, again asking for the signed contract, & he waits for a reply.

If no reply ever comes back, then they (Prem League) know they cannot win the case as they cannot provide a contract between themselves & the publican.
For the Premier to continue the matter, they MUST provide that signed contract.

If there is no contract, then there cannot be any dispute & it can't even ever get near a court to decide as he would
just laugh it off, & tell them to stop wasting his time.

That really isn't the case, otherwise copyright cases would never succeed and we all know that they do. A breach of copyright does not require a contract between the owner of the copyright and the infringing party, that's the whole point of it, the case exists because the infringing party does not have a contract/rights.

 

[newtolinux]

The friday ruling seems in favour of us brits at home wishing to watch foreign EU satellite as we wish. We at home dont need to cover over anything on our tv sets presumably !! I have seen reports however now that english commentary options were missing for games on most foreign satellites. So the man at home has been screwed again by the PL flexing there muscles. What was interesting though was that on saturday sky had test cards running for the arsenal game and the 3pm games. It was viewable through interactive but without audio. So are sky looking to add 3pm games to their service for a premium ???? And that then would explain why cutting english comms from foreign satellites. they can make even more money lol !!!!

I guess reading through posts some of you are landlords or suppliers and i guess your situations are different. Copyright for the landlords would be the watermark logo now appearing on screen , the clock and score graphic , highlights of previous matches , sky commentators etc etc . So i think in my opinion more than just a simple logo. I think maybe they put a logo thinking everyone will cover it over but most people fail to cover over the clock graphic and score graphic. If you look now at the clock/score on sly sport 1 then compare with foreign on say sky italia; it is different. Why is it different to sky's?? Because the premier league have put it there again as there branding and it will succomb to copyright like the logo. The anthem in a pub i believe is covered off with a PRS license.

Will be interesting to see what develops but it would seem we are back to square one beofre the case even reached europe. Like rigsby said know one really knows the truth and get bullied by the big boys

new2

 

[Analoguesat]

just make it clear,is it JUST the premier league logo and the bottom right of the screen that they are saying is the copyright!
nothing else we should think about covering up blanked out etc!!?

At the end of the day it could easily cover all the graphics, theme tunes, playbacks of last weeks goals etc. Cut everything out and you will have bog all picture left!

In the latest action by the UK High Court, Judge David Kitchin ruled that pubs were violating the Premier League’s copyright when their patrons can view footage of previous matches, logos, pre-recorded video sequences and ‘anthems’ that were not authorised for use across borders

-http://www.rapidtvnews.com/index.php/2012020519431/premier-league-to-go-two-footed-into-copyright-pirates.html

 

[rolfw]

The friday ruling seems in favour of us brits at home wishing to watch foreign EU satellite as we wish. We at home dont need to cover over anything on our tv sets presumably !! I have seen reports however now that english commentary options were missing for games on most foreign satellites. So the man at home has been screwed again by the PL flexing there muscles.

new2

The general public were not really the target and would not have been affected by this much at all, had the numbers of pubs and businesses using out of area subscriptions not ballooned to such a level that they could no longer be ignored. So don't blame the Premier league for protecting their business model, blame the people who have forced them into a corner by flooding the licensed trade with these domestic subscriptions.

Most quality out of area domestic subscriptions are not significantly less expensive than Sky domestic subscriptions, the advantage they have is that they show the 3pm matches, which Sky are unable to show, whether it be to their domestic subscribers, or their business customers. If it becomes the case that the Premiership are not able to protect their product from these 3pm match subscriptions, we may end up with either no 3pm Premier matches at all, or you'll find them significantly time shifted on these packages.

 

[Analoguesat]

When you look at the money figures Europe contributes a relatively small amount to the Prem League income compared to the Rest of the World.


I wouldnt be at all surprised to see 3pm games removed from all European packages in the next round of tenders - either canned completely or timeshifted a couple of hours.

 

[bigtee]

I doent matter what the bar room amateur lawyers think - nothing is decided one way or the other until we get one of the cases going to court and end up with a definitive decision.

(Then wait for the inevitable appeals!)

Whether it is amateur bar room lawyers or serious expert lawyers, it is trite that the courts have final say. Nevertheless, what transpired in the ECJ was foreseen (or at least argued) by some of us on this forum. As I said elsewhere before, it may take another brave person like Karen Murphy to test the apparently developing "orthodoxy" but there are at least some informed lawyers who think that on proper interpretation even the logo ruse shouldn't work. Agreed though, it may take years to know the truly correct position.

 

[bigtee]

The general public were not really the target and would not have been affected by this much at all, had the numbers of pubs and businesses using out of area subscriptions not ballooned to such a level that they could no longer be ignored. ............

This is true to an extent. However if Karen Murphy had lost in the ECJ it would presently be a criminal offence to use a European card for viewing EPL football even privately in one's home ----- even if the FAPL or whoever do not seek to prosecute private persons. Surely that must be insane! And if in this respect the effect of the Karen Murphy case does not extend to non-European cards, it would mean private people using e.g. Arabic Showtime cards to watch EPL in the UK are criminals. Again, 'shirley' that cannot be right ---- and really we must be mugs to stand for it.

 

[rolfw]

As the situation was, prior to the mass commercial usage of these cards, as far as I'm aware, there had not been one attempted prosecution of a private person for using a "legitimate" foreign card, so it's a bit of a moot point, the private user has been dragged into this by the commercial sellers to try and add weight to their case.

 

[bigtee]

No, I do not agree that it is a moot point at all. Something that has such a serious effect as criminalisation is not moot at all --- even if as yet, it had not been attended by habitual prosecution. It could have been a slippery slope; if Karen Murphy had lost, the private user could have been next anywhere further along the road.

 

[rolfw]

What I'm saying is that Karen Murphy and the pub package sellers have not done the general public a great favour as some have suggested, as before the case brought about by the very active and lucrative sale of these cards for commercial use, there had not been a problem for the home user and was unlikely to be.

 

[dave1979]

At the end of the day it could easily cover all the graphics, theme tunes, playbacks of last weeks goals etc. Cut everything out and you will have bog all picture left!

In the latest action by the UK High Court, Judge David Kitchin ruled that pubs were violating the Premier League’s copyright when their patrons can view footage of previous matches, logos, pre-recorded video sequences and ‘anthems’ that were not authorised for use across borders

-http://www.rapidtvnews.com/index.php/2012020519431/premier-league-to-go-two-footed-into-copyright-pirates.html

i not its not as clear as what the comment above say's but reading that,there is a chance there is away around it then,if your not showing the logo!(cover up)or the anthems!(mute)and its not pre-recorded,or footage of previous games then from the point made there your not doing anything wrong.....!if only it was as easy as that.LOL

 

[fergyc]

Most pubs that I've been in mute it anyway so people can talk

 

[dave1979]

HA we turns ours up full....get so many in cant here it even when all TVs are turned up!only time its down is when TV2 are showing it as its not in english then!

 

[dave1979]

What I don't or can't understand is, The Premier League have licensed Nova to Carry the Logs, If a judge in a European court has ruled that Nova can be sold anywhere within the EU then I am sure that must go for the licence they hold for the Logo.
Sky were told that printing on Sky cards not to be used outside the UK was also not legal so if the rights holder ie Nova have the licence for the Logo and they are allowed to be sold anywhere in the EU then that a problem between the EPL and Nova not between EPL and end user.
So if anyone comes to you say I bought this system legally from Nova so please take the copyright infringement up with them and not me what can they say?
I would love to know, The premier league have been advised to sell rights including logos on a EU wide bases so the fact you getting something on your screen that you don't want is not your problem really.

 

[newtolinux]

Dave , you are missing the point . Using a nova card in a UK commercial premises requires permission from the premier league. For us watching indoors at home its no longer an issue and more than legal to do so . Its the pubs having the foreign systems that are screwing things for the armchair watcher at home. The cards i believe being sold in the UK are domestic NOVA cards registered to some random Joe in greece at a random address. So in essense no commercial rights have been paid for logos etc on that particular contract. I think the EU case screwed it for commercial premises when they deemed a pub environment to be consistant with the "communication to the public" clause. Think the prem league are throwing a curveball with the logo as everyone will cover that up but forget about the clock graphic in the top left which is also subject to prem league copyright. The anthem in a pub can be disregarded as it is works of Kasabian and would be covered under a PRS license which i believe the licensed trade must have. End of the day only viasat now carrys english commentary but for how long????? By the premier league adopting a licensing model around linguistical zones it should really cut down on the amount of pubs with foreign sats and enable sky to regain there commercial position in the UK unless the pubs customers dont mind listening to : - 1) no commentary 2) a foreign commentary or 3) radio commentary out of sync. It is laughable really. Surely much easier and safer for pubs to go the sky route to be honest. Also the fact that sky had a test card running with 3pm's last weekend would maybe indicate that they are going to begin showing 3pm games on a saturday ; probably pay per view but who cares if its in english !!!

new2

 

[smoggy07]

Dave , you are missing the point . Using a nova card in a UK commercial premises requires permission from the premier league. For us watching indoors at home its no longer an issue and more than legal to do so . Its the pubs having the foreign systems that are screwing things for the armchair watcher at home. The cards i believe being sold in the UK are domestic NOVA cards registered to some random Joe in greece at a random address. So in essense no commercial rights have been paid for logos etc on that particular contract. I think the EU case screwed it for commercial premises when they deemed a pub environment to be consistant with the "communication to the public" clause. Think the prem league are throwing a curveball with the logo as everyone will cover that up but forget about the clock graphic in the top left which is also subject to prem league copyright. The anthem in a pub can be disregarded as it is works of Kasabian and would be covered under a PRS license which i believe the licensed trade must have. End of the day only viasat now carrys english commentary but for how long????? By the premier league adopting a licensing model around linguistical zones it should really cut down on the amount of pubs with foreign sats and enable sky to regain there commercial position in the UK unless the pubs customers dont mind listening to : - 1) no commentary 2) a foreign commentary or 3) radio commentary out of sync. It is laughable really. Surely much easier and safer for pubs to go the sky route to be honest. Also the fact that sky had a test card running with 3pm's last weekend would maybe indicate that they are going to begin showing 3pm games on a saturday ; probably pay per view but who cares if its in english !!!

new2

where did you see this test card?

I was in a pub 2 weeks ago and he had a sky sports poster up with 3pm kick offs on it, I forgot all about it till now, dont think they`ve got another dish set up but they had uk sky on their tv screens