Astra 2F: Iberia & Balearics Discussion

[joddle]

Just returned from Malaga where all is as good as was except for the Five cluster.

Hmm - but that's only because nothing has changed yet apart from the 5 cluster.

Once 2E gets up there, what we get from 1N will changeover to 2E and perhaps some to 2F as well. We already know the footprint for 2F - the five cluster gives us that - what we don't know is what 2E, with perhaps the major part of the UK channles on will be like.

It is entirely possible 2E will be very like 2F - BUT - it is also entirely possible it will differ - and if it does those differences are totally unpredictable. Some areas now enjoying good 2F reception may find it worse or impossible whilst those with current nulls from 2F may enjoy easier reception - the truth is we simply don't know.

The only good advice is wait until everything settles down in the summer - re-assess the situation - then make a decision based on fact, not guesswork.

The fact that some installers - as in the quote above i Menorca - don't mention 2E is a worry as people may make then a decision to buy a large dish based on the evidence being distributed which only relates to 2F when in fact when the time comes they may not need that - or may need something even much bigger once the time comes. Highly irresponsible to publish half truths - better to tell people we don't know and will advise once the situation is stable.

 

[Menorca Man]

Well if he has no competition he can charge what he likes. Anyway as far as dish pricing goes the retail price of the parts should be somewhere near the following:

Famaval 1.8m PF, dish 450€, kingpost 50€, Feedhorn 25€, LNB 30-70€ (depending on number of ports and the brand).
Famaval 2.4m PF, dish 900€, kingpost 65€, Feedhorn 25€, LNB 30-70€.

I'd say a competitive inclusive price for a 1.8m dish install is in the 750-800€ range, plus the price of a concrete base if one is necessary.

Thanks Huevos. Good info to have and more in line with what I felt would be reasonable!!

Cheers

 

[dxsat]

The prices quoted by the Menorca installer are about right for top quality dishes. Note in the piece he says that inferior quality dishes don't work as well. You get what you pay for.
I no longer install in Madrid ( nor am I likely to ) but when I did, I charged €900 for a 1.2m ChannelMaster or Prodelin and €1500 for a 1.8m including an Invacom QDF-031 and matched feed horn. This was in 2006 to 2008.
This combination outperformed the cheaper steel dishes by quite a wide margin.

I would now probably use Inverto Black Ultras.

I remain convinced that the reason so many people have been having problems in Spain with new 2F channels is the quality of dishes used by the majority of installers. Very few of them seem at all interested in decent quality fibreglass products.

I know these comments will bring criticism from those with a vested interest in using cheaper dishes but it happens to be true.

The Menorca article is broadly right apart from a few missed details.

 

[joddle]

I think that most reputable installers in Spain have always used what was fit for purpose - and in the past cheaper dishes in the main were quite adequate for the purpose of receiving UK tv in many areas of Spain- there was simply no need to buy the best.fibreglass dishes unless you were on the very edge of the footprint or in one of those strange black hole areas such as around Alicante before 1N fired up or Barcelona now with 2F. You can't really generealise on Installers and the correct installation in Spain - there are simply too many variations in reception all over the country.

However the situation has changed and squeezing the last ounce of signal from a setup is now more crucial for some people (but not all) - and in those cases the best advice is not to skimp on a cheaper dish but to get the best you can afford - and in some areas that will have to be the very top end dishes - but in many others cheaper dishes will suffice. BUT before you do I maintain it is still much too early to think of investing in a 2.4 Channel Master or 3M Prodelin dish without first knowing exactly what the footprint from 2E will eventually be. Some of us may be horrified when the bird lights up and we see what we can and can't get - and others may be pleasently surprised - lets wait and see eh!

 

[Huevos]

The prices quoted by the Menorca installer are about right for top quality dishes. Note in the piece he says that inferior quality dishes don't work as well. You get what you pay for.

The Famaval 1.8m dishes work pretty much the same as a luxury dish, and SNR, BER and MER are pretty much the same too. If you are going to put them up in the ocean and spray them with salt water 24 hours a day, or subject them to 200km/h winds a CM is probably a good idea, but if they are just going to be under the Spanish sun 300 day a year, the Famavals can easily hold their own against the more expensive competition.

 

[robt23]

Famaval 1.8m PF, dish 450€, kingpost 50€, Feedhorn 25€, LNB 30-70€ (depending on number of ports and the brand).

I found this 1.8m off-set from Fte , check -out the gain , not bad for steel construction and beats the CM by 1 db !! Very crucial in fringe areas.

This is all on paper of course but worth a thought.

Has anyone installed one of these yet and how are they on price ?

 

[timo_w2s]

I found this 1.8m off-set from Fte , check -out the gain , not bad for steel construction and beats the CM by 1 db !! Very crucial in fringe areas.

This is all on paper of course but worth a thought.

Has anyone installed one of these yet and how are they on price ?

[img=[URL="http://p224056.ipscdn.com/public/style_images/master/attachicon.gif%5D"]http://p224056.ipscdn.com/public/style_images/master/attachicon.gif][/URL] fte-off-set-180.jpg

The gain on that one is quoted at 12.5GHz high frequency which is always going to be better than on lower centre frequencies like those quoted by CM, so is misleading...

 

[robt23]

I usually see the gain figure quoted at 12.5 ghz and the 1.8 m Famaval comes in at 46.4 db.

However, Famavals are difficult to come by and there is a flimsy version and a good version . I have been told to stay well away from Famavals in the past and stick to solid makes - CM, Prodlein and Fte.

 

[timo_w2s]

I usually see the gain figure quoted at 12.5 ghz and the 1.8 m Famaval comes in at 46.4 db.

However, Famavals are difficult to come by and there is a flimsy version and a good version . I have been told to stay well away from Famavals in the past and stick to solid makes - CM, Prodlein and Fte.

Manufactures like to quote gain at higher frequencies as they can give larger gain figures which look better. I suppose as long as you compare gains for the same frequency it's not so bad but ideally it would be better to compare gains at the frequencies are are most interested in which would be at the lower end for BBC etc, but it's hard to find those figures.

 

[robt23]

I suppose as long as you compare gains for the same frequency it's not so bad but ideally it would be better to compare gains at the frequencies are are most interested in which would be at the lower end for BBC etc, but it's hard to find those figures.

Agree on those points and I have been googling the top names and they quote 12.5 / 12.75 ghz.

I and most of us here are interested in the gains on the lower end and that as you said - manufacturers like to give out 12.75 ghz , which will always give us high readings.

My days of installing are over , sadly, but it would be very useful to print off the readings on the 9.75 ghz - 10.6 ghz range.

One person south of Martos in Jaen with his 1.8 m cm has managed ( just-about ) to home in on the 2f frequencies .

I really would like to see a reading on what he`s getting on 2f !

 

[timo_w2s]

Agree on those points and I have been googling the top names and they quote 12.5 / 12.75 ghz.

Fair enough, I'd only done a couple of quick looks on Google and only found gain figures at lower frequencies. But as you say, these are just figures on paper, the real test is what you can get in the real world.

 

[joddle]

There is a Channel Master 1.8 on "the bay" at the moment - very cheap too at £395 but it is in the UK - but may well be worth considereing if you can get it to Spain - may even be worth sending over by courier at that price.....

 

[robt23]

There is a Channel Master 1.8 on "the bay" at the moment - very cheap too at £395 but it is in the UK - but may well be worth considereing if you can get it to Spain - may even be worth sending over by courier at that price.....

Very , very tempting ,at that price. Comes to 467 euros plus the courier but i don`t trust ebay - especially being sent from the uk and a seller i`ve never heard of.

I`d rather buy here in Spain and in any case I am waiting on the 2e footprint.

This is a personal opinion , the diish is new and comes with it`s mount , ready to be placed onto your mast.

There`s still 20 mins left - I`m out though - too bad......

 

[Huevos]

However, Famavals are difficult to come by and there is a flimsy version and a good version . I have been told to stay well away from Famavals in the past and stick to solid makes - CM, Prodlein and Fte.

Who told you this nonsense? If you've found a flimsy version it's not a Famaval. And they are not difficult to come by. I've bought 2 in the recent past for 100€ each.

 

[Menorca Man]

Has anyone installed one of these yet and how are they on price ?

fte-off-set-180.jpg

PVP 750€ (ouch!!) according to Page 13 of the Fte Maximal catelogue:

h**p://www.ftemalaga.com/Catalogos%20y%20tarifas/Tarifa%20FTE%2009-10.pdf

 

[robt23]

I read this about the Famaval range somewhere , where there was one called Marafa which is a low grade Famaval.

The Famaval has it`s logo printed on where the Marafa is a generic dish with a thin metal sheet; this giving a lower signal.

The 190 cm Famaval is prime-focus and the Marafa is a 180cm.

This is what i have read and damn i can`t find the article or the forum.

Huevos, that price of 100 euros is making my mouth water , where did you buy those dishes and would it indeed be the Famaval with it`s logo printed on the front ?

 

[Huevos]

I read this about the Famaval range somewhere , where there was one called Marafa which is a low grade Famaval.

The Famaval has it`s logo printed on where the Marafa is a generic dish with a thin metal sheet; this giving a lower signal.

The 190 cm Famaval is prime-focus and the Marafa is a 180cm.

This is what i have read and damn i can`t find the article or the forum.

Huevos, that price of 100 euros is making my mouth water , where did you buy those dishes and would it indeed be the Famaval with it`s logo printed on the front ?

I don't see those dishes in any Famaval material. And yes my dishes are Famaval. No they don't have a logo. The logo has only appeared in the last couple of years, and only through certain suppliers. There is no efficiency difference between a dish with a logo and one without, after all how could painting a logo on a dish make it more efficient? Dishes were bought second hand, and there are plenty of them around due to the number of Brits returning to the UK.

There are some photos of one of the dishes here:
http://www.satellites.co.uk/forums/topic/146718-heavy-duty-groundstand-base-in-a-hurry/

 

[kota]

you guys make me laugh !! You seem to take for granted whatever you read on the internet !!

The only two 1.80m dish manufacturers in Portugal were Famaval and Antel. The former is still in production and the latter is bankruped. Also, there's no such thing as 1.80 or 1.90 diameter difference. Both have 1.80m reflecting areas. Marrafa used to get one or the other for its own resale but has gone west for ages.

Having owned at least three 1.80m plus a 2.4m Famaval dishes and one Antel 1.80m in the past, I've never came across any silly logos printed on them.

All I can say is that Famaval was the best bet and still is for performence. End of story.

 

[robt23]

There is no efficiency difference between a dish with a logo and one without, after all how could painting a logo on a dish make it more efficient?
There are some photos of one of the dishes here:
http://www.satellites.co.uk/forums/topic/146718-heavy-duty-groundstand-base-in-a-hurry/

Of course the logo wouldn't make one bit of difference to the signal - common sense !

Those are some nice photos of your setup and a very quick way of setting the dish up.

I found some of the info on the Famavals in this link - might explain some things , certainly alittle more clearer to me :

www.satandpcguy.com/Site/portuguese_1.8_1.9_2.4_famaval_turkish_prime_focus_off-set_satellite_dishes_costa_blanca_spain.php

 

[Huevos]

I found some of the info on the Famavals in this link - might explain some things

Read between the lines. I don't want to get involved with politics so I'm not going to say anything further. The guy that wrote that is a forum member here so may pop up to explain in greater depth what he is talking about. Maybe he is just disagreeing with someone else who says the opposite.