Advice Needed DAB in France

rodscha

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So,DTT airwaves travel in a similar way as TV analogue signals,including occasional tropospheric phenomenons?
isthat also valid for digital radio?
how can I set a wavelength for digital radio?
 

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So,DTT airwaves travel in a similar way as TV analogue signals,including occasional tropospheric phenomenons?
isthat also valid for digital radio?
how can I set a wavelength for digital radio?

Yes, and yes - digital radio (DAB/DAB+) uses VHF Band III here in Europe - 174-230MHz.

A Band 3 dipole or yagi antenna is suitable. :) I had a DAB catch at 280km over the summer, using a dipole antenna.

In Carcassonne you'd be at the fringes to receive the DAB+ muxes from Toulouse on 6D, plus maybe 7C and 8C. In tropo maybe the two national muxes from Marseille/Petite Étoile on 7C and 8B too (one of those instead of the co-channel Toulouse services!) - https://www.rplusd.io/maps/map.php?zone=Toulouse (This site is very useful for DAB in France!)
 

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Thank you,great info! It appears i m still off target for this DAB radio(which is pretty unknown here in france ...) and the radio list is awful,none of the "good" stations is present. A mystery for me ,why the main stations are absent.
Btw,do you think I could I get anything from Spain?
Will there be a "nightly" propagation like with MW& LW in the past?
 

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Thank you,great info! It appears i m still off target for this DAB radio(which is pretty unknown here in france ...) and the radio list is awful,none of the "good" stations is present. A mystery for me ,why the main stations are absent.
Btw,do you think I could I get anything from Spain?
Will there be a "nightly" propagation like with MW& LW in the past?

The two national multiplexes with the major services (France Inter, France Culture, RTL, NRJ, Virgin, RFM, Chérie FM, M Radio, etc) only cover the Paris-Lyon-Marseille autoroute corridor at the moment. They’re apparently going to expand the network over the next year to other autoroutes and cities where local DAB has launched already (so presumably including Toulouse).

You may get both during tropospheric conditions there from Marseille. There’s also some multiplexes due to launch in Montpellier later this year.

As for Spain, there’s a couple of multiplexes in Barcelona, but it’s not really been rolled out there.

A friend of mine from Lyon runs a Facebook group called “Radio FM & DAB+ en France” where there’s lots of discussion over what’s happening with the digital radio rollout in the country. :) One of the guys on there picks up Italian DAB from time to time on the Mediterranean coast, from as far down as Rome.

Screenshots of the two national multiplexes (received here via their satellite feed on 5°W) with the services on them -
 

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SimonE

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Adam, I wonder if you have driven down the French M1/M2 DAB+ route from Paris to Lyon? It looks from the map that you would need to change frequency to remain listening to a particular radio station many times-like RDS in the UK for FM. I wonder how they do that?
 

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Adam, I wonder if you have driven down the French M1/M2 DAB+ route from Paris to Lyon? It looks from the map that you would need to change frequency to remain listening to a particular radio station many times-like RDS in the UK for FM. I wonder how they do that?

I haven’t, but in theory the switch should be seamless on a modern car radio. DAB does have a system like RDS AF on FM called service following. This uses the ensemble IDs and service IDs of the DAB muxes and stations to match up radio stations between frequencies. Individual muxes can also have metadata with their alternative frequencies/block numbers listed to help the process. A lot of car radios are dual tuner and are constantly scanning in the background.

The main national commercial mux here in the UK (Digital 1), has the same thing - it’s on 11D except for in Scotland where it uses 12A instead. In practice I think there’s a gap between the two coverage areas on the M74 at least though anyway (although I’ve never tried it!)
 

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Thank you,great info! It appears i m still off target for this DAB radio(which is pretty unknown here in france ...) and the radio list is awful,none of the "good" stations is present. A mystery for me ,why the main stations are absent.
Btw,do you think I could I get anything from Spain?
Will there be a "nightly" propagation like with MW& LW in the past?
Maybe the French have the right idea about DAB, for car use here in the UK I find it hopeless here in the Midlands, way to much drop out just as you want the hear something too! Even with the national muxes. Good old FM never fails.
 

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Maybe the French have the right idea about DAB, for car use here in the UK I find it hopeless here in the Midlands, way to much drop out just as you want the hear something too! Even with the national muxes. Good old FM never fails.
Not just France, despite the hype in this country DAB has not taken off/taken over as claimed.

Many countries worldwide have either refused to add DAB to their listings, or found listeners just aren't interested in a substandard radio service.

 
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A friend of mine from Lyon runs a Facebook group called “Radio FM & DAB+ en France” where there’s lots of discussion over what’s happening with the digital radio rollout in the country. :) One of the guys on there picks up Italian DAB from time to time on the Mediterranean coast, from as far down as Rome.

Screenshots of the two national multiplexes (received here via their satellite feed on 5°W) with the services on them -


Here in Italy DAB+ distribution is good, at least in north part of the country, not sure in the southern areas.
All main autoroutes are well covered by italian 3 muxes.
Also, from my home near Milan I have a very good reception including the Swiss mux for which I installed a specific vertical polarised VHF antenna (Italy is in horizontal polarisation).
Better and better audio quality compared to a very bad FM sound.
 

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Here in Italy DAB+ distribution is good, at least in north part of the country, not sure in the southern areas.
All main autoroutes are well covered by italian 3 muxes.
Also, from my home near Milan I have a very good reception including the Swiss mux for which I installed a specific vertical polarised VHF antenna (Italy is in horizontal polarisation).
Better and better audio quality compared to a very bad FM sound.
Italy may well be using a higher bit rate for there DAB then, some of the stations in the UK sound appalling, I don't even think some of them are even in stereo!
 

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Italy may well be using a higher bit rate for there DAB then, some of the stations in the UK sound appalling, I don't even think some of them are even in stereo!
So, not every station have the best sound, but most important one like RAI or main private networks have.
Also, FM is a disaster here in Italy, with many many stations covering each other without a specific plan. It began in the 70s and 80s, now it is a little bit better, but DAB+ is a different story compared to FM.
However, the best sound is in the mux from Switzerland. Listen to Swiss radios on Hotbird satellite and imagine more crisp and clear audio. Very good for classical and jazz music.
But, for example, Radio3 Classica from RAI has a very good audio too, without any compression.
Just said that Switzerland uses vertical polarity, italian horizontal one, so I installed and mixed two different antennas and it perfectly works in my receiving setup.
 

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Italy may well be using a higher bit rate for there DAB then, some of the stations in the UK sound appalling, I don't even think some of them are even in stereo!
Very few are in a stereo format, more are low quality mono

Quantity over quality.

and....... back to the 90's
 

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Not just France, despite the hype in this country DAB has not taken off/taken over as claimed.

Many countries worldwide have either refused to add DAB to their listings, or found listeners just aren't interested in a substandard radio service.


According to RAJAR figures released around the end of last year, listening to radio via DAB in the UK has now overtaken FM/MW/LW combined (43% vs. 34.2%).


In terms of audio quality, DAB in the UK is technically run in the same way the commercial Freeview multiplexes are - cramming as many services on whilst pushing the limits of what the general listening audience will tolerate. The early days of DAB in the country with a more limited set of services delivered with at least a half-dencent bitrate MP2 stream didn't work out (aside from the big cost of early receivers). Ultimately what attracted more DAB listening was adding more services at the expense of bitrate (partly compensated by more efficient MP2 encoders), down to downgrading some services as mono from stereo/joint stereo. More recently DAB+ stations have been rolled out, though again it's been more the case of doing so to add more stations per multiplex/ensemble but at least some stations that were in mono are now in stereo again.

Looking at Wohnort, all DAB+ stations in France appear to have a fixed bitrate of 88kbps using HE-AAC v1 which should deliver good to very good results. In comparison quite a few DAB+ stations in the UK go down to 32kbps or even 24kbps HE-AAC v2 - for the 32kbps stations they don't sound too bad as long as the sampling rate is at 32 kHz (e.g. Heart 90's IIRC) but on the SDL ensemble/multiplex (which I can't receive here at home) BFBS is doing 24kbps stereo with a sampling rate of 48 kHz, and it sounds very poor with a lot of "metallic" artifacts.

For me the main boon of DAB for me is the availability of Absolute Radio. Even at 80 kbps mono MP2, it's many times better than a scratchy mid-powered AM transmitter around 60 miles away (Lisnagarvey on 1215 kHz) which is listenable in the day if there's no local electronic interference, but forget it when darkness falls. I do wish though that Bauer would transform the station to DAB+ even if it means being no longer able to listen to it on my Acoustic Solutions Portal 2 DAB/FM radio, though having bought it 17 years ago, it owes me nothing at this stage. I only wish that more of the modern DAB+ radios available these days aped the likes of the AS-P2 radio in having an F-socket for an aerial connection & line audio output.

As it is, DAB(+) in the UK isn't an option for serious, high quality audio listening at home. The best option in that regard is the high bitrate streams that some broadcasters offer - but truth be told, most people listening to radio stations at home these days are likely to be doing so via speakers that mask a lot of low bitrate issues (mobile phones, voice-activated gadgets like Alexa, most portable DAB(+) radios etc.) so commercially, the bitrate battle was lost some time ago. If a station is available on FM and the received signal is strong & clean enough then it too is an option, but an awful lot of such stations these days have their audio compressed to an nth of their lives.
 

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According to RAJAR figures released around the end of last year, listening to radio via DAB in the UK has now overtaken FM/MW/LW combined (43% vs. 34.2%).


In terms of audio quality, DAB in the UK is technically run in the same way the commercial Freeview multiplexes are - cramming as many services on whilst pushing the limits of what the general listening audience will tolerate. The early days of DAB in the country with a more limited set of services delivered with at least a half-dencent bitrate MP2 stream didn't work out (aside from the big cost of early receivers). Ultimately what attracted more DAB listening was adding more services at the expense of bitrate (partly compensated by more efficient MP2 encoders), down to downgrading some services as mono from stereo/joint stereo. More recently DAB+ stations have been rolled out, though again it's been more the case of doing so to add more stations per multiplex/ensemble but at least some stations that were in mono are now in stereo again.

Looking at Wohnort, all DAB+ stations in France appear to have a fixed bitrate of 88kbps using HE-AAC v1 which should deliver good to very good results. In comparison quite a few DAB+ stations in the UK go down to 32kbps or even 24kbps HE-AAC v2 - for the 32kbps stations they don't sound too bad as long as the sampling rate is at 32 kHz (e.g. Heart 90's IIRC) but on the SDL ensemble/multiplex (which I can't receive here at home) BFBS is doing 24kbps stereo with a sampling rate of 48 kHz, and it sounds very poor with a lot of "metallic" artifacts.

For me the main boon of DAB for me is the availability of Absolute Radio. Even at 80 kbps mono MP2, it's many times better than a scratchy mid-powered AM transmitter around 60 miles away (Lisnagarvey on 1215 kHz) which is listenable in the day if there's no local electronic interference, but forget it when darkness falls. I do wish though that Bauer would transform the station to DAB+ even if it means being no longer able to listen to it on my Acoustic Solutions Portal 2 DAB/FM radio, though having bought it 17 years ago, it owes me nothing at this stage. I only wish that more of the modern DAB+ radios available these days aped the likes of the AS-P2 radio in having an F-socket for an aerial connection & line audio output.

As it is, DAB(+) in the UK isn't an option for serious, high quality audio listening at home. The best option in that regard is the high bitrate streams that some broadcasters offer - but truth be told, most people listening to radio stations at home these days are likely to be doing so via speakers that mask a lot of low bitrate issues (mobile phones, voice-activated gadgets like Alexa, most portable DAB(+) radios etc.) so commercially, the bitrate battle was lost some time ago. If a station is available on FM and the received signal is strong & clean enough then it too is an option, but an awful lot of such stations these days have their audio compressed to an nth of their lives.
You are definitely singing from my song sheet! I'm so surprised the youngsters with better hearing haven't noticed. If you don't mind a bit of audio compression, FM, with a good clean signal, is remarkable good. The streamed services come close when they use 320kb/s.
 

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so,FM remins the best available solution... then,what 's thepoint of DAB? just selling more radio receivers?
 

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According to RAJAR figures released around the end of last year, listening to radio via DAB in the UK has now overtaken FM/MW/LW combined (43% vs. 34.2%).


In terms of audio quality, DAB in the UK is technically run in the same way the commercial Freeview multiplexes are - cramming as many services on whilst pushing the limits of what the general listening audience will tolerate. The early days of DAB in the country with a more limited set of services delivered with at least a half-dencent bitrate MP2 stream didn't work out (aside from the big cost of early receivers). Ultimately what attracted more DAB listening was adding more services at the expense of bitrate (partly compensated by more efficient MP2 encoders), down to downgrading some services as mono from stereo/joint stereo. More recently DAB+ stations have been rolled out, though again it's been more the case of doing so to add more stations per multiplex/ensemble but at least some stations that were in mono are now in stereo again.

Looking at Wohnort, all DAB+ stations in France appear to have a fixed bitrate of 88kbps using HE-AAC v1 which should deliver good to very good results. In comparison quite a few DAB+ stations in the UK go down to 32kbps or even 24kbps HE-AAC v2 - for the 32kbps stations they don't sound too bad as long as the sampling rate is at 32 kHz (e.g. Heart 90's IIRC) but on the SDL ensemble/multiplex (which I can't receive here at home) BFBS is doing 24kbps stereo with a sampling rate of 48 kHz, and it sounds very poor with a lot of "metallic" artifacts.

For me the main boon of DAB for me is the availability of Absolute Radio. Even at 80 kbps mono MP2, it's many times better than a scratchy mid-powered AM transmitter around 60 miles away (Lisnagarvey on 1215 kHz) which is listenable in the day if there's no local electronic interference, but forget it when darkness falls. I do wish though that Bauer would transform the station to DAB+ even if it means being no longer able to listen to it on my Acoustic Solutions Portal 2 DAB/FM radio, though having bought it 17 years ago, it owes me nothing at this stage. I only wish that more of the modern DAB+ radios available these days aped the likes of the AS-P2 radio in having an F-socket for an aerial connection & line audio output.

As it is, DAB(+) in the UK isn't an option for serious, high quality audio listening at home. The best option in that regard is the high bitrate streams that some broadcasters offer - but truth be told, most people listening to radio stations at home these days are likely to be doing so via speakers that mask a lot of low bitrate issues (mobile phones, voice-activated gadgets like Alexa, most portable DAB(+) radios etc.) so commercially, the bitrate battle was lost some time ago. If a station is available on FM and the received signal is strong & clean enough then it too is an option, but an awful lot of such stations these days have their audio compressed to an nth of their lives.

Anecdotally, I can see why the DAB figures are above FM/MW in the UK now, especially in the past few years. Stuff like the BBC stations don’t sound too bad, especially in a noisy environment like the car. Plus in the part of England I live in, the DAB signal for the national stations is much better than FM, which constantly flicks between several marginal transmitters.

If I’m listening to the radio in the car, it’s via DAB. Same for a lot of my family. All new cars now have it as standard, and a good amount of ones from the last ten years do as well.

The builders on the worksite behind where I live inflict one of the national DAB stations on me pretty much every day, on one of those rugged worksite boombox things. Usually Heart 90s or Absolute… :D

All you’ve said is bang on. It is a pity that we’ve gone for cramming it with low bitrate stuff in this country. As for the 88kbps HE-AAC on the French muxes, it does sound very nice. I’ve modulated the 5°W feeds to DAB using a HackRF (there’s a thread on here somewhere) and the stations sound great through my stereo DAB mini HiFi. Much better quality than any UK station I’ve heard.
 

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so,FM remins the best available solution... then,what 's thepoint of DAB? just selling more radio receivers?
FM with a good aerial, though there are many internet radio stations with high transmission rates.

Once 5G is rolled out beyond the test stage DAB will die and not a moment too soon.
 

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so FM will remain?
Analogue is destined to disappear so it will not be around forever.

Currently only certain manufacturers are building DAB only radio equipment, most in the pocket of World DAB (oxymoron), the planned FM switchoffs have been halted with the exception of Norway and I think Switzerland, the public elsewhere havve voted with their feet to prevent perfectly acceptable kit from ending up in landfill.
 
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