mesh vs solid dishes

RedDevil_UK

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and the signal strengths will jump to 100% and get thousands of channels, then everyone on this forum will be racing to B&Q for filler hahahah

ok, will wait till summer :)
 

Artist 2004

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Well, it's more than half way through summer now - I'm dying to know what happened!!
 

Simba27

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Last summer was rather busy, but I came across the old dishes today while clearing out some junk. I remembered this thread and decided it was time to find the answers.

I setup a 60cm mesh dish on a pole in the garden and fitted a 0.8db universal LNB that I got from a bargain bin. I pointed it at 19E which seemed fitting because it was originally a Sky Analogue dish.

Using my 80cm solid dish on the roof with it's 0.6db LNB I recorded the signal strength reading on GoTV (12663H 22000 5/6) as 99%. Then I connected the same receiver to the 60cm mesh dish and recorded 81%. An unexpected result: The 60cm disih is getting about 80% as much signal as the 80cm dish despite only having 56% of the surface area and thousands of holes in it.

First I gave the dish a good clean with a brush and some sugar soap. I got all the guano and algae and loose plasticote flakes off it. I checked the signal strength again. No change, still 81%. I guess all that filth on the dish wasn't really affecting the signal too much.

Next I decided to try and remove some of the rust, so I used my drill with a wire brush attachment. After a good 5 minutes of brushing, still no improvement in signal, 81%.

Time to fill in the holes. I had a look in my shed for a suitable filler. Something not too labour intensive. Ready mix tile grout - perfect. I spread it on and wiped it smooth with a damp rag. Disappointingly the signal strength was still 81%. I was expecting some change, better or worse.

Looking at the dish up close, I could see that due to the size of the grains in the grout, the "hole fillings" weren't completely smooth. So I gave it a light sanding and a coat of spray paint to smooth it over a bit. Still no change. 81%.

Just for completeness I checked the 80cm "control dish", still 99% - so no change in transmission power or atmospheric conditions.

I can't explain this result. I would have expected some change even if for the worse. I can still see faint dimples in the dish, I should probably have spent more time and made sure to get it completely smooth.

The only explanation I can think of for the constant value is that the old 0.8 LNB was somehow "maxed out". Does that even make any sense? The signal reflected by the dish being enough to drive the LNB at 100% capacity, but the signal out of LNB being only 81% of what the modern decoder is expecting. I'm making this up as I go along. Somebody tell me if I'm talking bollocks here.

Anyway, there's the result. No change for better or worse. Bummer.
 

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Some confusion here!

Where an electromag wave travels through an aperture smaller than its wavelength, then the far field beyond the aperture is much decreased, and the wave cannot propogate. Propogation isn't actually zero (which would need an infinitely small aperture, in effect a solid surface), but it becomes so close to zero as makes no difference.

With a sat dish, if the energy can't propogate through, then it must be reflected back instead (conservation of energy!).

As suggested, the lower efficiency of a mesh dish is due to surface irregularity. If the holes were perfect apertures, they would have to be razor sharp, so instead they're made rounded, so reflection becomes more diffuse, and also the apertures are no longer perfect.

See: http://www.physlink.com/Education/AskExperts/ae176.cfm .

(Added, rather than just quote equations, a better way to follow this is via more familiar Fourier optics, which is exactly the same physics, except the wavelengths are much smaller!

The far field pattern, beyond an aperture, is an Airy disc:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airy_disk .

As the aperture size decreases, the central spot also decreases in intensity (reduced propogation), corresponding to a smaller value of I in the Frauenhoffer intensity. But, when k becomes very large, effectively you get just a single very bright spot, corresonding to "straight through" propogation).

PS, here's a nice interactive demo, but your web browser will need Java:

http://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/primer/java/mtf/airydisksize/index.html .

PPS, filling in dish holes won't work! But, for entirely different reasons. Where two different surfaces meet, there's a boundary, hence an impedence mismatch.
 

spiney

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Ho hum, sorry, I'm probably not explaining too well here (Spiney kills off previously interesting thread ......... ok, so what's new?).

For each hole in a metallic mesh (including sat dish), if the aperture (hole diameter) is significantly less than the electromagnetic wavelength going through it, then the other side of the hole you get an Airy disc pattern, so there's as many discs as there are holes. The pattern intensity corresponds to the Frauenhoffer I value as given by Wiki (the Java interactive demo doesn't show this intensity variation, since that's really about photographic lenses and photography!).
So, yes, there's some energy gets through the holes, but only a tiny amount!

It gets different if you start to deliberately EXTRACT energy from this tiny field, since then you've created a "conduit". In waveguuides, there's a tiny slot in the waveguide wall - much smaller than a wavelength - but a "probe" going through this tiny slot can extract nearly all the energy (and that's exactly how lnbs work!).

( www.fnrf.science.cmu.ac.th/theory/waveguide/Waveguide theory 9.html

www.tpub.com/content/et/14092/css/14092_75.htm

www.tpub.com/content/et/14092/css/14092_74.htm ).


It gets different again, if you start making the aperture LARGER than the wavelength, as then you've made an "aperture antenna" (common for terrestrial tv, and newer type plate arrays of these are used on some Freeview transmitters).

( www.ee.surrey.ac.uk/Personal/D.Jefferies/aperture.html ).

( www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/RT1999/6000/6150zakrajsek.html ).

Which takes us back to the BSB squarial, see retro-tech section above ...

(added) the physics of fourier optics is the same - at much smaller wavelengths - as radio waves going through appropriately larger apertures (ignoring energy coupling, which admittedly is different, due to the relative size of atoms!). Strangely, the radio wave version is usually presented in mathematical equations, but the optical version in pictures. Maybe because of the photography connection? Anyhow, although both versions are alternative presentations of exactly the same thing, of course we find it much easier to "understand the pictures"!

eg, both maths and (some very pretty!) pictures at: www.opticalimaging.org/fourieroptics.html

Never ever let the maths put you off ........ !
 

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spiney said:
Ho hum, sorry, I'm probably not explaining too well here (Spiney kills off previously interesting thread


Maybe I need to post some 'nice dish' shots to get interest up again ?
 

Simba27

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I understand what you are saying about diffraction. The point of the exercise being to modify the dish such that the waves are reflected into the LNB rather then being diffracted. I'm not sure what you mean about an impedance mismatch or how that is relevant.

Having looked at my dish again, I can see why the experiment failed. The surface of the filled-holes is nowhere near as smooth as the surface of the metal. I do believe that some improvement would have been noticed if I had chosen a very fine filler, and then used micromesh to polish it really smooth - the dish having been made equivalent to a solid dish. However it's also true that the man-hours necessary to do this properly would be prohibitive.

As predicted earlier: I am not getting any less signal because I have not modified the existing surface. Unfortunately I am not getting any more signal because the surfaces I have added are not smooth and accurate enough.
 

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Just a thought here, has anyone got any info on the projected RF reflective properties of 'ready mix easy grout' at 10 - 12GHz? .I suspect it would be absorptive rather than reflective unless you have some RF reflective spray paint to give it a couple of coats with.


L.:)
 

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6 years ago at C band, i cover my chicken mesh dish with Aluminum foil tape
& i got improvements in signal, i think the nature of in mesh create a lot diffraction,
you did not find any change may be due to
1-properties of 'ready mix easy grout'
2 satellite signal you are receiving very strong??
 

spiney

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What I said was, for wavelengths bigger than holes, the field only exists a short distance behind the holes - unless you deliberately extract energy - hence what you get is reflection, but it's not perfect, a solid dish is slightly better.

You can't "fill in the holes"! What you'd have to do is create a new solid continuous conductive surface with no rf impedence mismatches. There's no practical method of doing this at all, never mind as a DIY job.
 
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