Need help: How do multiswitches distribute sat signals to multiple sat tuners?

[OldBen]

Ok, I am still confused. I read through the first 4 pages and threads that look relevant, and did a bit of search time, but my brain still hurts on how this is supposed to work.

With a bit of luck and a prevailing wind should be moving house next year, its new build so have option of specifying some additional cable runs (at wallet-busting prices no doubt) over standard lounge + bed 1 feeds.

At the moment where we are we have standard UHF amp in loft, with TV/FM fed into that, and sent out to 3 rooms with 2 additional feeds to a PC in the garage that records freeview. Simple stuff all coax/VHF/UHF. Also have sat receiver & motorised dish, with straight feed from dish to receiver in lounge. Single LNB. Easy. No Sky.

Thing is Berkshire is last to get Freeview HD in 2012, so when we move will get new main TV with Freesat integrated, and possibly freesat dual PVR in lounge as well. This means I want to work out how to potentially split the sat feed to 4-6 locations (lounge TV + poss dual PVR, kitchen, two bedrooms - kitchen/bedrooms to follow later when funds allow).

This is where my head hurts, as I understand you basically have two modes for LNB, Horizontal and Vertical, so you have to have multi-LNB's - seems logical. Can you however have two LNBS (from a quad or Octo obviously for future proof) into some sort of switch with one permanently horiz one vertical and each TV/freesat receiver would be switched to each one as required? Or if you had 4x Freesat TV/receivers for example do you need a quad LNB and 4 input device and somehow the switch lets each receiver pick a free LNB? This is the bit that really boggles my noggin?

If someone could explain what would be needed in this scenario would really help me out understanding what I might need :-worship

I realise I could dispense with any sort of distribution and put an additional cable drop to each location from the dish, but I am working on the assumption each run will cost me dearly from the builder, and trying to understand if there is a way to do this with single run to most of the points (more spare drops to lounge obviously for flexibility) with relevant filter/outlet plates of course.

Then to add to the confusion, I also want to use the existing technmate receiver on 1W for Czech TV for family & visiting dignitaries on the wife's side. 1W is too far over from 28.2E for multi-lnb bracket, so will probably look at second dish for this potentially (using sky minidish for Astra/Freesat). Is there an easy way to switch this into a system with DiSEQc or multiplexing somehow into the feed to all rooms? (so I could have this receiver in lounge, or in a bedroom?) or am I best to stick to dedicated feed for this, and some sort of RF loopback to distribution with magic eye to view in other rooms? (I understand from other posts there are boxes available now for non-sky receivers that come with IR blaster for receiver end and use defacto irlink setup and viewing TV end?).

It seems something like a loftbox does what is required if it was a straighforward sky to all rooms from receiver box in lounge situation, but as I want freesat in each room, so each room needs an LNB feed essentially, I need something more industrial from Vision or Fracarro that has "4 sat inputs", just not clear on how this works, and if I just need Astra horiz and vertical do I only need 2, or if I have 4 freesat tuners do I need 4 inputs from a quad and each set effectivly gets switched to an LNB? Just confused how this works if its 4 sat in and 8 outputs?

Help!

 

[PaulR]

As well as H and V you also have high and low bands. This means there are four variations (HH, HL, VH, VL) to play with. A multiswitch needs a special LNB (a Quattro) which gives out these 4 variants as fixed outputs from the 4 outputs. It then amplifies and supplies whichever one is requested by whatever is connected to one of its outputs. This is known as a 5 in (4 x sat + 1 FM/DA multiswitch. You can get 4 out (not worth it), 8 out, 12 out, 16 out etc. Most multiswitches will also mix in terrestrial TV signals and FM/DAB radio as these frequencies stack up next to each other without interference.

This single cable can be connected directly to a radio or TV or satellite receiver and, because they all "see" the frequencies in the bands that they want they will work fine. But this is a bit of a waste. If you put something called a triplexer on the end of the cable it will split these three frequency bands up and present them at three different sockets for three different devices.

In your case I would three (or possibly even four) cables to your main room (TV, two to the Freesat + and one spare) I would use quadplexers which would use two of the cables each and give two sat, one TV and one FM/DAB each.

I'd run two cables to each of the other rooms with a quadplexer on each.. If there's any chance of you having a Freesat TV AND a Freesat+ box in any of the other rooms then put another cable to there.

With regards to the other satellite positions, if they are only to be viewed in one room (the living room?) I would run a separate cable from each LNB to a plate in the living room. If you want these to be available around the house then it can be done but the cost really will mount up as you will need a 9 in (2 satellites) or 13 in (3 satellites). You will also need receivers that understand how to issue DiSeqc commands to the multiswitch.

A loftbox isn't the amswer as it only feeds the sat signals to one room. It takes the RF out from a Digibox, mixes it with the terrestrial TV signals and distributes these around the house.

I'm sure I've missed something out or started another train of thought so ask away.

 

[OldBen]

PaulR - Many thanks for an excellent explanation! :-worship:-worship:-worship

So its the high/low quattro LNB 5 in X out part that I did not understand, but this now makes perfect sense

Understand the triplexer bit, assuming quadplexor (with 2 cables in) would put sat1 + FM on one cable and Sat2 + TV on the other I understand that as well (I can't see how two sat's would share one cable as they may want different things hi/lo h/v).

Now I understand the 5 in thing, I see what you mean by 9 in (additional set 4 hi/low h/v for second sat) but that would be OTT as only one box in the house will receive the 1W satellite (as you need a card) even though the ability to move it from main room to guest bedroom may have been useful. I can see why you would do this for hotbird or similair however for example, where you get a lot more channels, but as I expect to be using integrated freesat/box rather than generic receivers thats probably no benefit to me. Clearly the right answer here is a dedicated drop from the second dish (could keep motor as well then) to dedicated box. If I really want other room to get it I could find a multiswitch that has a loop feed in to distribute, or diplex the feed out from the dedicated receiver back to loft with the downlead to the second room only.

So freesat PVR would only ever be in the lounge (we are not a huge TV watching family, just trying to future-proof the setup) so need for additional drops to other rooms.

So quattro and multiswitch seem like the right solution to the problem, allowing all but the main room to be a single drop of cable (the bit I have to pay the builder for). House should have cat5/6 as well so I guess there is always video extender options available later if I get desperate. Might see if they will do the drops in shotgun WF100 maybe, as that would at least 2x futureproof and allow more options...

Thanks again for your help, it all fell into place, could not just get my head around that sat bit earlier today! PaulW

 

[PaulR]

I think you've just about got it.

Technically, but of no inportance really, the quadplexer is just a triplexer with the second downlead going straight to a socket on the plate.

Yes, I think that just as a precaution I would fit a Quad LNB for 1W.

Good luck.

 

[OldBen]

Great, thanks a lot. quadplexor being triplexor + 1 makes sense as well.

Did a bit more reading, need a amp as well for FM/DAB/TV before mutiplexor. Multiplexor not that much more expensive for 9 on versus 5 in, but as noted I don't think its the best solution for what I need. Seems as long as you put Astra 28.2E on the first input though, sky boxes or freesat tuners (with no DiSEqc support) are happy to just see the one input so its always an option. All I need to decide right now is what drops I would need so I can get a quote from builder, which is why I needed to understand how I would do the main part.

 

[PaulR]

You'll only need an amp if your TV and/or radio signal is weak. Living in a reasonably signal strong area I've just used a passive signal splitter in reverse (stand by for pursing of the lips from the purists).

You're right about putting 28E as first input. Digiboxes don't know anything about DiSeqc.

(Multiswitch, not multiplexer. Don't know what you'd get if you ordered one of those. A big screen cinema?)

 

[OldBen]

I blame multiswitch mis-spelling on an increase of blood levels in my caffeine stream!

Yes, where we are now is equidistant from Hannington and Crystal Palace (well CP is further, but with more wattage) so with no booster, even with high-gain aerial, your done for. Hence looking at db drop over a MULTISWITCH (see got it right that time) would need to boost at least TV aerial. FM is probably ok, but DAB benefits from a tweak as well - especially when the weather is bad for propagation.

 

[rolfw]

How far are you moving? As I have set up several people for Freeview HD on Crystal Palace not too far away from you and Freesat HD is a bit of a dead duck.

 

[OldBen]

Hi Rolf, hope your well.

I did wonder that, both lifespan of freesat and receiving from CP, I am moving East so nearer to CP and further from Hannington. I also realised during my recent research that the modern tri-beams (if thats the right term) have passive gains of 16 or even 19dB which are probably enough for Crystal palace if I move 8-10 miles closer than I am now, now you mention it and the more I think about it may be the best option. I do still like the idea of multiswitch with quattro for astra though as it would allow sky in future if I ever go over to the dark side ;)

 

[OldBen]

Would Triax 304102 triplex plates, and Triax 304109 quad plates be a good choice? Should I be looking at anything else?

I am guessing Webro Twin WF100 is the cable to use for all drops (so I have a spare lead for future expansion in most rooms), any other suggestions? (I like the twin, as I can call it "one" cable when talking with builder about installing it!)

 

[PaulR]

The Triax plates will be fine - I think they're what I have. And the twin WF100 is also good.

 

[OldBen]

Ok, getting there. Have recovered from comedy price from Builder, still need to work on that, but assuming goes ahead just pricing out the various bits and bobs and looking at what I might need.

Checking out site sponsor sateuropa looking for a Quattro LNB and see there is a Quattro version of the Invacom I already have a single of at the moment (£30), but they also do a "BigSat" and "Golden Interstar" Quattro at 1/3rd of the price. Do you get what you pay for, I am thinking once its up there its hard to chance and go with what I know?

Also, I think I need a 60cm dish not a minidish with a Quattro, is that right?

Thanks for all the help

 

[PaulR]

I'll have to leave others to comment on the LNBs as I haven't a clue but for £30 I think I'd go for the Invacom.

Yes, It's advised to go up a size of dish from normal when using a quattro/multiswitch combination due to the higher noise floor this has. TBH the difference in price between a 60cm dish and a 50cm dish ($ly 43cm minidishes are NOT suitable anyway) is minimal.

 

[satelliteman]

Good choice although any of those shown on that page would suit, I've used a £12 quattro before now without problems. I think choosing the correct switch gear is probably more important.

 

[OldBen]

Thanks PaulR - Yes will be 60cm.

Thanks satelliteman, I am not a fan of big ladders, so will probably just go with what I know for the £20 difference, the invacom I have has been up there for 5 years and seems to perform very well, so £20 for peace of mind has to be worth it. Going to get a decent switch, I think from memory I was looking at a Vision 5/12 or a Fracarro equivalent, I have a load of PDF datasheets I saved on the home PC back when I started looking with all the details. Probably get someone in to mount/align the mast on T&K then do switch and all the donkey work myself with the termination.

 

[satelliteman]

Can't go wrong with the Fracarro range; they do two nice receiver powered switches with very little or no signal loss. They'll allow power pass for the UHF port to power a pre-amp. Triax and others also offer similar.

 

[PaulR]

Think one of my multiswitches is a Triax.

 

[OldBen]

I think Triax is the other range I have the detailed for. Not sure I need a pre-amp, need to see what sort of signal I can get from CP and the loss of combining DAB & FM with the UHF TV.

 

[OldBen]

Is it worth using the 4 or 5 core cables from the LNB, I read they are really hard to route and the OD of 20mm or so makes them difficult to work with, or is it best just to run 4x standard cable (or two twins)?

 

[PaulR]

I've seen the 4 core cable (but not 5 core) advertised for sale and it would be really convenient as the individual cables are colour coded. This makes it really easy to get it right with the connections at either end. What I don't know is what the cost implication is over four individual cables. Also I don't know what spec the individual cables are. I suspect that they won't double copper shield but use an aluminium foil shield but that's just a guess.

For my installation in France I used some stuff they call gaine which is a flexible corrugated tubing that they stuff all their wires into. I think it was 19mm I used but it may have been 22mm. I marked each of the four cables with a bit of coloured PVC insulation tape and put the same marker at the drum end. I then taped the ends of 4 lengths together and pulled the lot through the gaine in the garden. (I had preiously measured how much gaine I would need from the LNB to the multiswitch.) It's a two person job but in a staight line not too difficult and I don't think I had to resort to using the yellow lubricant they have over there. I used a mix of WF100 and CT100 as that was I had.