Sound drop-out on freeview

cableman

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I am in a fringe area (Braintree Essex) for dtt reception from Sudbury, about 14km away, I think. I also have to aim through the upper branches of a large oak tree!
I have installed a Televes DAT 45 run in with CT100 with MRD and psu, but get some occasional drop-out and pixilation. It is more frequent on some programmes than others. I am using a 'cheap as they come' stb, Blackdiamond, which I paid £10 for.
Can anyone tell me If it pays to spend more on the stb for reliable reception in weak signal areas, or are the stbs roughly the same in their ability to decode a less-than-perfect signal?
Also I have noticed some interference on the analogue signal, in the form of sporadic horizontal lines which appear across the whole screen, worse at some times than others. Any idea please, what this might be.
Any advice gratefully received. cableman.
 

rolfw

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Yes, some set top boxes are more sensitive than others, but getting a more expensive one may not achieve the desired improvement.

Can't remember what the DB gain is for the MRD on the DAT aerials, but it may be that you are still hovering on the threshold and a secondary amp may be needed to make up the difference, unfortunately, without a meter, it is all going to be trial and error.

The interference to the analogue signal could be from a household appliance, perhaps a central heating switch, does the signal run through a distribution amplifier as well?

Looking at the transmission power, a couple of the multiplexes, will be much harder to pull in than the others.
 

cableman

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rolfw said:
Yes, some set top boxes are more sensitive than others, but getting a more expensive one may not achieve the desired improvement.

Can't remember what the DB gain is for the MRD on the DAT aerials, but it may be that you are still hovering on the threshold and a secondary amp may be needed to make up the difference, unfortunately, without a meter, it is all going to be trial and error.

The interference to the analogue signal could be from a household appliance, perhaps a central heating switch, does the signal run through a distribution amplifier as well?

Looking at the transmission power, a couple of the multiplexes, will be much harder to pull in than the others.

Thanks Rolfw for your reply.And thanks for the thumbnail info.
I think the extra gain of the mrd is supposed to be 10db.No distribution amp is in use atm. I had not thought of using a secodary amplifier though. Perhaps I'll end up giving that a go. I have to say the mrd powered up does make a significant gain in basic signal level at the stb and results in the (effective) complete elimination of any 'snow' on the analogue signal. So I know the unit is working, at least!

Is it possible that the sporadic, multiple, faint horizontal lines that appear at some times (and which I take to be electrical interence), could be reduced by the use of a ferrite ring on the downlead? And, am I right that this interence could be the scource of the problems with the digital channels?
Sorry about all these questions m8, but I'm getting old and do tend to find myself going on a bit sometimes! Please feel free to ignore me!
Regards wireman.
 

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It depends on what you mean by "occasional". Could well be the famous "impulsive" interference, to which - unfortunately - cofdm is extremely sensitive.

Amplifiers are best avoided, if at all possible, however that's not the factor here.

Is it just 1 particular MUX, or all of them? Is it very brief, or for long period, perhaps with day/night changeover, ie, "marginal" reception conditions?
 

cableman

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spiney said:
It depends on what you mean by "occasional". Could well be the famous "impulsive" interference, to which - unfortunately - cofdm is extremely sensitive.

Amplifiers are best avoided, if at all possible, however that's not the factor here.

Is it just 1 particular MUX, or all of them? Is it very brief, or for long period, perhaps with day/night changeover, ie, "marginal" reception conditions?
Thanks Spiney for your observations.
I haven't watched for long enough yet to be sure, but the drop out does seem worse on some muxes thar others (though I can not remember right now which are the worst.)
The drop-out may last for ,say, up to 3 seconds and occur ,say, twice in half an hour.
The basic signal strength indicator on the stb shows a solid 'full signal' or close to it on all the muxes. But of course I know nothing about the linearity of that indicator or the signal quality.
Perhaps I need to watch for longer and try to pin down more specifics.
 

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Well, ta, but understanding what a problem MIGHT be is only the 1st step, then you've got to determine whether it IS that, and as for actually fixing it ..... that's the domain of Murphy's Law (if anything can go wrong, it probably will).

However, yes, it does sound most like impulsive interference, rather than anything else, a "spikes train" messes up cofdm like nothing else !

Some more techy stuff, note particularly the practical suggestions near top:

http://www.ebu.ch/en/technical/trev...df#search="impulse interfere modelling cofdm"

DVB-T got invented, after which there was much self congragulation and back patting all round, then they found there was this "little problem" .....

The above paper says this "cast a shadow" over the launch of DTT, that's a euphemistic way of describing what happened to On Digital!
 

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Hey, go easy on the thanks, foot up a bit ....... thankyou !
 

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Hmmmm ........

Having just looked again at the above 2 papers (via links), they are extremely technical, so perhaps I can explain a bit better .......

Impulsive interference basically comes from electro-mechnical machinery, eg, on/off switches, central heating thermostats, electric motors, car iginition systems, and NOT from "electronic type" stuff (which creates a different type of "radio pollution"!). This gets "added on top" of the digital signal you're already receiving.

Typically, it will be a rapid series of sharp narrow spikes, lasting a short time (eg, from an switch operating), although that "pattern" can also be continuous (eg, a motor, where the commutator is a repetetive on/off switch ......).

Now, for those interseted in Laplace and Fourier transforms, a very narrow pulse - in the extreme limit, a "Dirac delta pulse" - has an infinite frequency spectrum, which is exactly the problem! While such a pulse is "happening", then the signal to noise ratio of a digital reception system is - effectively - very much worsened.
(It's "as if" your dish or aeiral suddenly gets a lot smaller - in bad cases completely disappearing - for the brief time that the impulse lasts!).

But, how this affects reception very much depends on the modulation system used, ie, exactly how the digital signal is being "delivered".

For example, the ATSC terrestrial system - used throughout North America - uses 8 level vsb, ie, each seperate and succesive symbol represents only 3 bits! Therefore, a "spike" added to this will - at worst - only corrupt a few consecutive symbols, and the error correction system should then compensate (except in the worst cases).

Similarly, for satellite (DVB-s1, using QPSK), each succesive symbol represents only 4 bits!
(In any case, all satellite is "fairly immune" to impulse interference, as the dish "sees" only a narrow beam, instead of the much wider area of a Yagi terrestrial aerial).

Unfortunately, the DTT cofdm system is completely different!

For example, with 2K cofdm, 2k (2048) symbols are all transmitted at the same time! And, even though a single interference "spike" lasts a shorter time than the cofdm symbol "duration", nevertheless that many of them are still affected. If the pulse is very high energy - which it often is, for nearby electrical machinery - then error correction wil be unable to cope.

(although the "impulse energy" MIGHT still be low enough for the error correction to "just about" cope, the cofdm receiver can't possibly react quickly enough to "flag" the various carriers for their different error rates!).

Also important is the Freeview receiver. For the 2k (or 8k!) carriers to remain orthogonal, the local oscillator must be very precise. Otherwise, they're no longer orthogonal, and the bit error rate starts going up (very rapidly!).

(For example, my -now antique- Setpal receiver often has an annoying 8 second delay when changing channels, because it's checking carrier frequency against received Viterbi error rate, but most DTT receivers don't bother doing this!).

When compressed video broadcasting via cofdm was first demonstrated as feasible - as part of the Spectre project, around 1992 I think - everyone got extremely excited, but nobody seems to have considered the practical effects of impulsive interference, this only "emerging" during the On Digital fiasco!

For example, see: www.ebu.ch/trev_256-marti.pdf , http://www.dtg.org.uk/reference/tutorial_transmission.html .

(google searching for "spectre dtt cofdm", etc, will get more stuff!).

There's been a "tiny cover-up" - in that - while DTT style cofdm is a "good idea in general" - as regards multipath immunity, and the possibility of single frequency networks - nobody is admitting that they "forgot about" this particular problem!
 
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