Astra 2E: Scandinavia & Baltics Reports

[archive10]

Thanks for your input. The cheerful reply from 4wd may be bad for us on this side of the "null" ;-). Maybe I should try a new LNB. My current Inverto Black Ultra Single is about two years old. What about the Maximum quad and twin? Are thet as good as the single? I did have good reception on all channels yesterday evening. However, I did loose BBC two (Both SD and HD) during the first quarter of the Super Bowl game last night @12:45 a.m... I guess it was time to go to sleep.

We are on the same side of the null. I know I have a CM180, but I have same performance as I've had for years.

I would carefully guess that you might like to check a) the LNB, and b) the alignment of the dish.
For example, if your dish was pointing roughly between 28.2E (2F/G) and 28.5E (2E), then if the dish moved to the other side of 28.2E, you would have the same reception on 28.2E, but loose 28.5E.
SO: Get your meter out, and check your alignment before you start buying more stuff!

 

[Fredrik M]

I have been keeping an eye on bema's logging for the last couple of days and it seems like we have had a rough period here in Western Sweden. He lost almost all spot beam channels except Channel 5 and Channel 4 during daytime yesterday. In the past, my Triax 110 was absolutely sufficient for the 2F spot beam. I upgraded to the Gibertini after the switchover to 2G which caused significantly lower signals. Now I use the Triax dish for experimenting. For the moment we are getting the non-stop primary election coverage on MSNBC.

St1, I did get my meter out this weekend and some improvements were made. It is now aligned towards the 2G, but maybe I should change to 2E in order to get the BBC in SD. I would have to give up on BBC4, STV and Channel 4 in HD though.

 

[archive10]

I have been keeping an eye on bema's logging for the last couple of days and it seems like we have had a rough period here in Western Sweden. He lost almost all spot beam channels except Channel 5 and Channel 4 during daytime yesterday. In the past, my Triax 110 was absolutely sufficient for the 2F spot beam. I upgraded to the Gibertini after the switchover to 2G which caused significantly lower signals. Now I use the Triax dish for experimenting. For the moment we are getting the non-stop primary election coverage on MSNBC.

St1, I did get my meter out this weekend and some improvements were made. It is now aligned towards the 2G, but maybe I should change to 2E in order to get the BBC in SD. I would have to give up on BBC4, STV and Channel 4 in HD though.

Hmm. I will be in the summerhouse next week (about 20 clikcs NE of Hässleholm), so I will get readings from there that will suport your findings.
I hope things are still pointing the right way...

 

[archive10]

I upgraded to the Gibertini after the switchover to 2G which caused significantly lower signals. Now I use the Triax dish for experimenting. For the moment we are getting the non-stop primary election coverage on MSNBC.

Plastic dishes are your friend here... Even the Cahors type dishes work really well...
If you are bored, I think I may be able to get you a 120cm Prodelin dish at a good price...
Else you want to monitor blokket or similar to see when something comes up near you...

 

[peeter3000]

Just looked at the null-map - and yes Bergen is on the other side of the null.
(seemed to remember the lines being otherwise aligned, but, hey...)

Hello.
Can anybody help to put II (second) NULL to map?
I need to know about Tallinn Estonia.

 

[Fredrik M]

st1, thanks for the offer. The Prodelin dishes look really appealing... My current dish is a Gibertini 125, do you think that a Prodelin 120 would out perform my dish? Unfortunately, there does not seem to be any 150 cm Prodelin dishes?

 

[margusten]

Here in Estonia receiving Astra 2E UK beam with 3M antenna is better then ever for one week now.
I can receive 10847V transponder at mornings. It was below lock here for one year and more.

 

[mickwig]

could that have something to do with AMOS5 moving east slowly? According to N2YO its at 21.3 right now.

 

[archive10]

st1, thanks for the offer. The Prodelin dishes look really appealing... My current dish is a Gibertini 125, do you think that a Prodelin 120 would out perform my dish? Unfortunately, there does not seem to be any 150 cm Prodelin dishes?

Ah, I misunderstood you - I thought you meant you were using the TD110 (which is really a 100cm dish, and probably has a working surface diameter of 98 cm). The Prodelin will outperform this easily. But the Gibertini 125 is likely to be very similar to a prodelin, so not worth the upgrade for that reason only.

And no, there are no 150 cm Prodelins, next step up is 180 cm. Very few SMC dishes at 150, Laminas has one, and I think cahors (visiosat) just introduced a 150cm dish (but I haven't seen a retail price for it).

 

[4wd]

better then ever

Same here, e\f\g uk strongest ever seen.

 

[Townsey]

I have been around for while but never posted.
Winter has been with us for a while, albeit a warm and wet one.
As normal at this time of the year 2e is back again for about 6-8 daytime hours. Living under the 1st null has been interesting and an education into what is what regarding dishes and LNB's, also trees that you do not think will affect things.
I have an open view to the eastern sky from about 10e to around 60e so one would think nothing is in the way. This has proved to be erroneous thinking.... the trees that start a 10e and go to the west DO have an effect on reception. Once the leaves have gone there is about 1db more signal than when the leaves are on the trees, you can also see this on the pan European transponders that are up by the same amount. I have felled 2 that could have been a problem and that made no difference, it is the ones that are some 20 meters high and 30 meters to the south that are the problem. Why I cannot tell, as they are definitely not in anyway in front of the dish. I would fell the lot but HWMBO will not allow me to as they are beech trees of around 100 years old, and she says that they give shade to parts of the garden in the summer time, it appears they also shade my dish as well, but how I do not know. There is no difference if the leaves are dry or wet, or there is a high wind.
Anyway with my 2,2mtr prime focus it is down to micro millimetre adjustments with a middle priced spectrum analyser.
When I say micro millimetre I really do mean that and if the wind rises over about force six it shakes the dish and this can disrupt the reception. I think maybe a 3 meter would help but not for 24/7 reception. for me UK spot beam is more of a sport (DX TV) than anything that can be relied on. Also by March or April it will be gone again if the pattern of the last few years carries on.
Has anyone plotted a new map of the null or are we stuck with the two that have been around for a long time? If there is can someone point me in the right direction.

So a little report from the Island of Fyn.

 

[hvdh]

Hello Townsey, you said two things that make me doubt the trees are in the way directly:
- The same pattern repeats already for several years. That is strange, trees grow, things should worsten a lot during every year's springtime.
- If a tree is in the way, high winds will cause big signal variations because of the varying illumination on the dish.

The winter period gives better dB values anyway, because the LNB is colder. Though 1 dB difference is quite a lot.
It might be, a tree is *almost* in the way, not shading directly yet, but already within the beamwidth of your dish. The tree branches & leaves are warm objects that add to the noise level.

If you can wait a few weeks, the sun will be moving behind the geostationary satellites.
For Fyn and Astra 28 East, that will be on 29 Feb at 11:10 CET. A few days before or after, at this time, will also be fine.
If the dish is shaded, the trees are in the way.

 

[Townsey]

Hello Townsey, you said two things that make me doubt the trees are in the way directly:
- The same pattern repeats already for several years. That is strange, trees grow, things should worsten a lot during every year's springtime.
- If a tree is in the way, high winds will cause big signal variations because of the varying illumination on the dish.

The winter period gives better dB values anyway, because the LNB is colder. Though 1 dB difference is quite a lot.
It might be, a tree is *almost* in the way, not shading directly yet, but already within the beamwidth of your dish. The tree branches & leaves are warm objects that add to the noise level.

If you can wait a few weeks, the sun will be moving behind the geostationary satellites.
For Fyn and Astra 28 East, that will be on 29 Feb at 11:10 CET. A few days before or after, at this time, will also be fine.
If the dish is shaded, the trees are in the way.

Hi HVDH thanks for you reply and info.
I can wait till the 29th February, and I had forgotten about the sun. I am pretty sure that the trees are not in anyway shading the dish but you never know. You make one point the I should have thought of and that is the noise level generated by the trees themselves, which under the circumstances that I have could well be the problem. The noise level rises just enough to block any signal from 2E as it is such a marginal one in the first place.

On the spectrum analyser the transponders are there all the time but if they are more than -50db I cannot get a lock on any receiver, that I have. At -49db or less I can get a lock but needs to be -48db or less for a pixel free picture. Also as I said a bigger dish would bring in a few more db's but also would make focusing more difficult. Unfortunately my pockets a not deep enough to take a chance and buy a new one to try. All the very large dishes have now gone from the central antenna systems that used to be here in the analogue days. The one I have came from one of the last to be taken out of service.

Another question for anyone, why is the time to loose the signal so precise it takes about 7 minutes from the first sign of the error rate going up and the start of pixilation to the complete loss of picture. Is this maybe due to a shift in the solar cells on the satellite or the box that the satellite, I believe it moves in, has a precise time and this could be when it moves out of the focus of my dish. As I said earlier micro millimetre adjustments make a lot of difference, I wonder if there is a techy who reads this list can give me an answer.

 

[skomedal]

I wonder if there is a techy who reads this list can give me an answer.

Welcome to the null line club

I call the daily loss of signal on astra 2e uk spot as doing its daily wobble


Regards

 

[archive10]

I have an open view to the eastern sky from about 10e to around 60e so one would think nothing is in the way. This has proved to be erroneous thinking.... the trees that start a 10e and go to the west DO have an effect on reception. Once the leaves have gone there is about 1db more signal than when the leaves are on the trees, you can also see this on the pan European transponders that are up by the same amount.

Glad to hear from other DK 28.2E receptionists...

However, while I will not rule your tree-interference out straight-off, I have serious doubts that any tree will act as a noise generator by scattering incoming micowaves in the general direction of your dish, without being in the actual signal path itself.
You sound fairly sure there are no trees in the line of sight (which is a cone 2.2 meters in diameter extending towards the satellite). So this is a bit perplexing.

And you have a measurable difference between leaves and no leaves.
But, as others propose, it may be something else that co-incides with the leaves coming on or off.
Reception is alway better in the winter than summer due to les moisture in the air (apart from passing snow-storms).
Do leaves absorb microwaves? Yes. Scatter them? Maybe. Make noise in your due to noise induced as waves boucing off your reflector? Less likely...

But now you have made me really curious.
Can you post a picture or two of the installation, and possibly even a pic with the camera pointing to where the dish is pointing, so show what the general view of the dish is?

Nice installation, by the way. I think I've found your rather in-depth story on blogspot...

 

[archive10]

Hmm. I will be in the summerhouse next week (about 20 clikcs NE of Hässleholm), so I will get readings from there that will suport your findings.
I hope things are still pointing the right way...

I am in the summer cottage now.
Unfortunately, my "SAT-meter PC" has gone bad, so I cannot give precise readings.
But all channels on Freesat and Sky are coming in, execpt Channel 4 HD, which is not received on the Humax, and badly pixellating on the Sky+ HD box.
I do receive CH4 HD at home on the CM180.

 

[Townsey]

Welcome to the null line club

I call the daily loss of signal on astra 2e uk spot as doing its daily wobble


Regards

I suppose you could call it that but it is a little more of a scientific thing I think

 

[skomedal]

I suppose you could call it that but it is a little more of a scientific thing I think

Not really into the scientific side of satellite wobbles and movement inside their allocated /designated boxes/slots

Thats why I resort to streaming in sat off periods

Regards

 

[Townsey]

Hej ST1
Been away on work hence the delay in replies.

>However, while I will not rule your tree-interference out straight-off, I have serious doubts that any tree
>will act as a noise generator by scattering incoming micowaves in the general direction of your dish, without
>being in the actual signal path itself.

Well microwaves scatter all over the place if they hit something so the leave could well have an effect in the summer time. Also if two signals reach the same place, coming from the same source, from different directions and out of phase they can produce a nulling effect. For example in the analogue TV days (I know they are not on microwave but the effect is sort of the same) you would get a ghosting effect on the picture, if the signal arrive from different places out of phase and not quite at the same time. Because the signal from 2E is so low and variable the trees could be producing this affect.

>You sound fairly sure there are no trees in the line of sight (which is a cone 2.2 meters in diameter >extending towards the satellite). So this is a bit perplexing.

Agreed but I was hoping "maybe" someone with more tech knowledge could enlighten me, and suggest some scientific points that I might look at.

>And you have a measurable difference between leaves and no leaves.

Yup, about 1db on a marginal signal which means its there or isn't

>But, as others propose, it may be something else that co-incides with the leaves coming on or off.
>Reception is alway better in the winter than summer due to les moisture in the air (apart from passing >snow-storms).

Well that is also true, but of late even rain and snow have not caused a problem, so I suspect 2E is floating in almost the right place for my dish. A few days time it will move and be not receivable again unless I go tweaking.

>Do leaves absorb microwaves? Yes. Scatter them? Maybe. Make noise in your due to noise induced as waves >bouncing off your reflector? Less likely...

Yes microwaves can be absorbed and scattered, leaves might well do this, especially when wet or damp.

>But now you have made me really curious.
>Can you post a picture or two of the installation, and possibly even a pic with the camera pointing to where >the dish is pointing, so show what the general view of the dish is?

See what I can do when there is time.

>Nice installation, by the way. I think I've found your rather in-depth story on blogspot...

If its a Google Blog, that is not me, it is another west from here.

Regards

 

[archive10]

I do receive CH4 HD at home on the CM180.

Back in DK again, and I can see that this is now not quite the case anymore.
CH4 is pixellating heavily, and 4Seven is only marginally better. They're both on 11126V@2G.

But now ITV HD has gone entirely.

There's a pattern here.
That's on the CM180, which is, admittedly, pointing at 2E, not 2F/2G.
And the higher FEC of the HD channels naturally means that CH4 and ITV HD disappears first.
And CH4 and ITV HD are on Verticals, meaning Horizontals are easier to receive, as BBC News HD comes in no problem.

I may consider realigning come springtime...
...but it's definitely become more difficult to receive all channels properly.