Advice Needed DAB in France

[Adam792]

I believe that even a phonograph has a better frequency response than DAB in France...
It's very close to AM without the fluctuations in my opinion.
i'm kidding a bit
but how is it possible that in the end quality is denied for the sole benefit of quantity?
Even a talkshow is hard to follow.
I have an idea, release the Blu Rays in 320X240 in mono and put 4 days of film...

You would be horrified by the UK version, the French version sounds extremely good in comparison!

Seriously though, I think the French DAB+ sounds quite good. I appreciate that it’s demonstrably not “hi-fi quality” but for me it seems OK. It’s all personal preference in the end anyway

The system mainly seems to be useful in the car, where the increased background noise level makes hifi quality arguably less important anyway. At home it’s possible to use the internet or high quality satellite versions of radio stations for the best listening experience.

I know that my friend in Lyon (within the national multiplex coverage area) has said similar to what @rodscha has said as he appreciates the availability of FIP!

 

[Adam792]

From a signal rather than audio quality perspective, it's actually quite a nice system for tropospheric conditions.

Using a USB tuner (RTL-SDR) available for around 30€/£26, and the QIRX software (15€ licence), you can see the transmitters being received for a given mux on a handy map. Each transmitter transmits a unique ID (TII), which is designed to be decodable even where there are multiple transmitters for the same mux on the same frequency.

 

[Adam792]

Thank you,great info! It appears i m still off target for this DAB radio(which is pretty unknown here in france ...) and the radio list is awful,none of the "good" stations is present. A mystery for me ,why the main stations are absent.
Btw,do you think I could I get anything from Spain?
Will there be a "nightly" propagation like with MW& LW in the past?

Just to add, today the multiplex for Montpellier has launched (Montpellier Étendu on 11C) which covers up to the areas around Carcassonne according to this indicative map - https://www.rplusd.io/maps/map.php?zone=Montpellier

The plan apparently is that the same sites as used for these “Étendu” multiplexes will start to be enabled for the 2 national multiplexes as well, hopefully over the next few months.

 

[rodscha]

Just to add, today the multiplex for Montpellier has launched (Montpellier Étendu on 11C) which covers up to the areas around Carcassonne according to this indicative map - https://www.rplusd.io/maps/map.php?zone=Montpellier

The plan apparently is that the same sites as used for these “Étendu” multiplexes will start to be enabled for the 2 national multiplexes as well, hopefully over the next few months.

Thanks a lot!! looking atthe document,only hilltops will maybe get a fraction of it.
But then

• 100%
• Ado
• CapSao
• France Bleu Hérault
• Jazz Radio
• Melody
• Oüi FM
• Radio FG
• Radio Lenga d'Oc
• Radio Nova
• RCF Occitanie Méditerranée
• Sud Radio
• TSF Jazz

this list has none of the public,BBC-like radios (france bleu would be "radio kent or shropshire... local & tasteless)
2 jazz stations,nice!!
however , none of the "good" local ones are present.(France Inter,Culture,Musique,Fip)
Still nothing to appeal to local listeners.Except Lengadoc ,great local music (like Scotland radio or Alba for Scotland)
Looks like a total absudrdity to begin with obscure raios...

Cliquez sur une icône

 

[Adam792]

Thanks a lot!! looking atthe document,only hilltops will maybe get a fraction of it.
But then

• 100%
• Ado
• CapSao
• France Bleu Hérault
• Jazz Radio
• Melody
• Oüi FM
• Radio FG
• Radio Lenga d'Oc
• Radio Nova
• RCF Occitanie Méditerranée
• Sud Radio
• TSF Jazz

this list has none of the public,BBC-like radios (france bleu would be "radio kent or shropshire... local & tasteless)
2 jazz stations,nice!!
however , none of the "good" local ones are present.(France Inter,Culture,Musique,Fip)
Still nothing to appeal to local listeners.Except Lengadoc ,great local music (like Scotland radio or Alba for Scotland)
Looks like a total absudrdity to begin with obscure raios...

Cliquez sur une icône

Just a further update, two sites to cover Carcassonne for the two national multiplexes have been announced (one for each multiplex) - at the Camp Militaire de Pech d'Ange and Chemin Porte de Fer - r+d.io Maps - Cartes de couverture DAB+

These will carry the following stations -

• Air Zen
• Chérie FM
• Fun Radio
• Latina
• M Radio
• Nostalgie
• NRJ
• Radio Classique
• Rire et Chansons
• RTL
• RTL 2
• Skyrock
• Skyrock Klassiks
• BFM Business
• BFM Radio
• Europe 1
• Europe 2
• FIP
• France Culture
• France Info
• France Inter
• France Musique
• Mouv'
• RFM
• RMC

The predicted power and coverage (plus which mux will use which of the sites) is not yet known but this big rollout is apparently due between October this year and February next year with each multiplex gaining over 100 new transmitters across France!

I managed to pick up the new multiplexes from Brest and Rennes (9A and 10A/10D) by the sea on the SW coast of England this last week. The two national multiplexes are due to launch in Brittany as part of this rollout too.

 

[rodscha]

Thanks a lot!!! at last ,some radio you can safely listen to.

• FIP
• France Culture
• France Info
• France Inter
• France Musique

Only bonus is FIP,the rest iof the list is perfectly receivable via the present network....plus many local others...I wonder what the fuss is about!
not even a jazz station!!
online FIP MONDE is marvelous,why haven t they added it?And FIP Jazz too

 

[Adam792]

Thanks a lot!!! at last ,some radio you can safely listen to.

• FIP
• France Culture
• France Info
• France Inter
• France Musique

Only bonus is FIP,the rest iof the list is perfectly receivable via the present network....plus many local others...I wonder what the fuss is about!
not even a jazz station!!
online FIP MONDE is marvelous,why haven t they added it?And FIP Jazz too

Apparently KTO Radio is set to appear at some point too (there's a single slot left within one of the multiplexes), and maybe the local/regional multiplexes previously mentioned in Toulouse will be tempted to expand once the two nationals have installed equipment in your area!

It seems like the roll-out to Carcassonne is part of covering the A9 and A61 autoroutes out from Montpellier to Toulouse (A61) and the Spanish border (A9). I guess the idea is that the network will give constant coverage along the motorways for the 26 radio stations involved.

 

[Channel Hopper]

So what is left of audio (in broadcast quality) in the Republic ?

 

[rodscha]

KTO is the Catholic TV station,extremely somniferous... Lourdes'grotto live for hours;religious bla bla ,totally useless,what a pity!!
their tv is same,but has some music programs,due to the wealth of Catholic religious music.
Sometimes the Pope says or does interesting things and yes ,they show it,like Vatican TV
But a radio? How boring!!!!Never heard it yet;there s a local one called RCF ,they do local history....sometimes. Only bearable show.

 

[Adam792]

Launch of the two national multiplexes in Toulouse and Bordeaux happened this morning apparently, along with a couple of other transmitters in the areas surrounding Paris and Lyon.

The French media authority produced this nice animated graphic for the rollout over the next months. The two muxes will be a good target from here when they launch in the Amiens and Abbeville region in the next few weeks - I've already received the étendu multiplex from there on block 8D a few times over the last 6 months or so. M1 and M2 are due to use the same transmitters at similar powers.

 

[solly]

where it setup of software ?

 

[Adam792]

Thanks a lot!!! at last ,some radio you can safely listen to.

• FIP
• France Culture
• France Info
• France Inter
• France Musique

Only bonus is FIP,the rest iof the list is perfectly receivable via the present network....plus many local others...I wonder what the fuss is about!
not even a jazz station!!
online FIP MONDE is marvelous,why haven t they added it?And FIP Jazz too

Well… it looks like as of today the M2 multiplex has quietly launched from the Carcassonne transmitter on block 11B (Chemin Porte de Fer Towercast), with those public stations included. The other multiplex with RTL, NRJ etc will presumably arrive soon.

https://www.rplusd.io/maps/map.php?zone=M2

People have been spotting sparkly new dishes looking at 5°W popping up at various sites in France ready for these to launch (the feeds are on 11461H)

 

[rodscha]

thank you for the info...i ll see whether Carrefour still has fm/dab receivers.
As about 1/4 of the FM stations are present.
FIP is a welcome addition...
I wonder whether the reach of these waves is stronger/weaker than FM?
Also,is night propagation better,as was the case on MW?

 

[satesco]

We have two more activated streams (probably DAB on 11461 H, PID 531, in addition to the two known Metropolitan DABs with PID 301.

Also, four streams are activated on 11456 H,2547,3/4, and it seems that only ip 239.0.10.54 has content.

 

[rodscha]

I checked the given address for the transmitter. A small bushy hill near town. Why don t they use the Pic de Nore which easily covers most of the Département? Here they use 2 separate transmitters for Narbonne & Carcassonne 50 ks away?

 

[Adam792]

We have two more activated streams (probably DAB on 11461 H, PID 531, in addition to the two known Metropolitan DABs with PID 301.

Also, four streams are activated on 11456 H,2547,3/4, and it seems that only ip 239.0.10.54 has content.

These extra streams in the other PIDs are FM radio feeds in MPX format - specifically Thimeo microMPX - it’s a lightly-compressed 1 channel 192kHz feed ready-multiplexed for FM transmission (mono audio 0-15kHz, stereo pilot tone at 19kHz, L/R difference). They’re switching some FM stations like RTL and RTL2 over to this system apparently - it lets them dynamically switch stereo and mono for music and talk programming on RTL for example.

 

[Adam792]

thank you for the info...i ll see whether Carrefour still has fm/dab receivers.
As about 1/4 of the FM stations are present.
FIP is a welcome addition...
I wonder whether the reach of these waves is stronger/weaker than FM?
Also,is night propagation better,as was the case on MW?

It’s at VHF Band III so will travel less far than FM I think, although it’s subject to tropospheric ducting like FM (and UHF TV) so can sometimes travel big distances during enhancement. I’ve had the multiplex from Amiens here in the west of England before for example.

They’re using the smaller sites to focus on covering the motorways I think. Also the way the DAB system works with single frequency networks means that the high up sites that travel a very long way aren’t so useful, as they could cause SFN timing issues with other transmitters further away. In the UK, the large sites are used for DAB, but power limited to try and avoid this problem, with lots of lower power fillers.

 

[Fisty McB]

They’re using the smaller sites to focus on covering the motorways I think. Also the way the DAB system works with single frequency networks means that the high up sites that travel a very long way aren’t so useful, as they could cause SFN timing issues with other transmitters further away. In the UK, the large sites are used for DAB, but power limited to try and avoid this problem, with lots of lower power fillers.

IIRC the timing of the DAB Single Frequency Networks in the UK is limited to 74km - that means that if a distant DAB TX is more than 74km more than what is received from a more local TX from the same frequency, then the two (or more) transmitters will destructively interfere with each other (i.e. the most likely outcome is that the more distant TX will raise the noise floor). However if all transmitters are received within the 74km time frame, then the transmitters should constructively interfere with each other - this should mean that they actually reinforce reception, but it'll come down to the way signals are received in and out of phase at the same time, which in a moving vehicle will never be constant and not something most people need to worry about - it just means that most of the time reception is improved.

So for example, if I am receiving a DAB signal from 3 separate transmitters in an SFN that are 12km, 37km & 108km, then 108km-12km = 96km will mean the most distant transmitter can cause destructive interference. However if the TX from 12km goes off air, then 108km-37km = 71km which (just!) fits in the timing frame for constructive interference, and so the two transmitters here will combine to reinforce reception.

Those that are responsible for planning coverage will want to minimise destructive interference as much as possible.

If you look at the ERP levels for DAB TXs in the UK, then aside from three (I think) SDN transmitters that are run at 25kW maximum ERP, all are at 10kW or less with the very high sites like Holme Moss running at lower powers than this to help ensure that the coverage areas where they could cause destructive interference is minimised. Overall, the three national DAB networks use a transmitter plan sort of halfway between the multi-frequency high-power FM networks, and those used by mobile phone networks whom use SFNs themselves for their 4G & 5G networks.

A similar principle works for SFNs for DTT, although this isn't really used in the UK aside from some small & very localised examples (especially where available frequencies are at a premium) - the transmission configurations for each multiplex don't have a large enough guard interval to allow for anything much bigger, so Multi Frequency Networks (MFNs) are used otherwise.

 

[rodscha]

So,for individuals receiving radio,the only change is,buy a new radio & maybe pick up 1 or 2 new stations.
Economically the point would be selling lots of new radio receivers...
I hear less energy will be necessary...but more transmitters...to be built,when old ones still work.

Too bad these frequencies do not reach further,it would have been ideal to get the nearby country along with our own.
And fewer stronger transmitters rather than the opposite.
How likely is it to get satellite radio reception in cars one day?