Installing Dishes In Spain for 2E Chit-Chat

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OK Calling all egg-heads!
Have done some research regarding my current problem with the two houses sharing the dish and the lnb blowing up due to power surge. Distance between the houses is only about 4 meters, external wall to external wall. All I have been able to find on the web was from the US where they believe the PD to ground can vary no more than 0.2V per meter. That means, with my houses being 4 meters away should not be more than 1v ( theoretical 0.8v ) difference. Yet the lnb still blows every time the mains trips out. Still waiting to hear back from their electrician regarding possible cause.
Anyone got any further advice ( not grammatically correct, but I think we have more than covered that for now! )
 

Tururu

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Como me gusta el sistema de alarma que tienes
img_a4540.gif
pensemos que son parcelas/chalet adosados por la distancia (4 metros), pero realmente la diferencia de potencial con esas cuentas pueden ser mayores, todo depende donde esten las tomas de tierra y su calidad, realmente que tienes.?

"Pozo de tierras" bien hecho o una pica de cobre de 150cm conectada a un cable amarillo/verde.?
Sin un medidor (terrometro), sera dificil ver que tal son las tierras, pensemos que malas.
0'8VAC seria un milagro,con una toma de tierra bien realizada (pozo de tierras), con una resistencia de 4ohmios de memoria me suena que son 4-6 Voltios AC medidos en un voltimetro RMS (los normales solo miden a 50Hz cuidado).
No trabajo con Terrometro, ni siquiera tengo, lo pedi un par de veces prestado al departamente que prepara la toma de tierra en el CPD, donde damos por bueno un valor maximo de 3VCA (rms), todo lo que este por debajo, perfecto.

Por otro lado, seria bueno realizar antes una revision de la instalacion para ver por donde van los tiros
Los equipos con toma de tierra descargan las derivaciones sin problemas a tierra por el cable Schuko normal, siempre que el enchufe tenga conexion a tierra, perfecto.

Verificaremos si el enchufe tiene toma de tierra realmente.
Si no tiene toma de tierra, al medir en un cable schuko (150cm de largo), veremos unas tensiones inducidas por el cable, que no son reales, Fase-Tierra y el Neutro-Tierra de 50 a 90VCA de unos pocos miliamperios.

Si tenemos toma de tierra buena, tendremos/mediremos Fase-Neutro de 230VCA, Fase-Tierra de 230VCA y Neutro-Tierra de 3VCA como maximo si todo va bien, tranquilo que con lo que consume el voltimetro/tester no saltara el diferencial (0'03amp. en las instalaciones normales/viviendas).
Como referencia, lo que medimos entre Neutro-Tierra, veremos que nos falta entre Fase-Tierra.

Actualmente los sintonizadores/TV no usan este cable Schuko con toma de tierra y esto es un problema, todas las fuentes conmutadas tienen filtro EMI/RFI y estos se descargan a chasis, si conectamos con la mano un cable que este conectado a este chasis a otro equipo, sufriremos una "buena" descarga, saltando alguna chispa para nosotros no es mortal, para la electronica si.
Un truco para eliminar estas descargas molestas, aparte de dar toma de tierra al chasis del equipo, consiste en girar 180 grados la toma del enchufe, de esta forma cambiamos la Fase (conexion activa) al chasis, mandamos el Neutro al chasis y ya no sufriremos estas descargas, revisar con el equipo aislado/desconectado de otros equipos o los resultados no seran reales.

Sobre la toma de tierra de la vivienda ¿xxxx? en general tendras 1 unica toma por vivienda, si tienes ascensor tendras otra toma de tierra independiente (segun normativa), mide tú toma y la del vecino, usa un prolongador de los metros necesarios y midelas facilemte, como no tenemos consumo, puedes utilizar sin problemas un prolongador de 50 metros o mas.
Realiza las mismas mediciones F-N, F-T y N-T y compara con tú instalacion, asi sabras que tal esta cada instalacion, luego mide VCA entre las dos tomas de tierra.

Nunca vi este problema con LNB's causado por "instalaciones de tierras distintas", en los bloques, es la misma tierra.
En las instalaciones de redes de datos de cable, solo dentro de un mismo edificio, siendo necesario llevar la misma "tierra" si salimos del edifico y no se pueden conectar edificios con distintas redes de tierra o se quemaran los equipos que conectan las redes (esto es literal, alguno vi quemado), conectando con Fibra optica para aislar.
Antes las redes con cable RG213/RG58/RG59 o similar (segun impedancia 50/75 ohmios), incluso mas gordo como las redes de cable de ONO.
Actualmente todas estas redes van con fibra optica, tambien tienes LNB's con conexion de fibra optica, no tendrias estos problemas, pero no son baratos.

Nota: Usar guante de teflon o similar, no es mala idea, despues de unas cuantas descargas en este trabajo, te acostumbras a usarlos, los guantes de cuero tipo jardinero/obra aparte de incomodos, con el sudor son conductores.

Esperemos que no tengas una vieja instalacion bi-Fasica de 125VAC, las 2 ultimas que vi fue en Cibeles, en el edificio de Correos, cuando era Correos y en otro viejo edificio en la Puerta del Sol, total hace 4 dias de esto.

Comenta los resultados con cuidado y suerte.
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I enjoy the alarm system you have
img_a4540.gif
we think they are plots / townhouses by distance (4 meters), but really the potential difference with these accounts may be higher, it all depends where the earths and their quality may be, really you have.?

"Well lands" well done or a pike 150cm copper connected to a yellow / green wire.?
Without a meter (terrometro), it will be difficult to see that this is the land, we think that bad.
0'8VAC would be a miracle, with a ground well done (well land) with a resistance of memory 4ohmios me sounds that are 4-6 volts AC RMS measured on a voltmeter (normal 50Hz only measure carefully) .
No work Terrometro even got it, I asked a few times lent to commercial centers preparing ground in the CPD, which we take for good 3VCA a maximum value (rms), everything is below, perfect.

On the other hand, would be good to do before a review of the facility to see where the shots
The equipment grounding leads smoothly discharged ashore by normal Schuko cable plug has provided the grounding, perfect.

We check if the outlet is really grounded.
If no ground, measuring a schuko cable (150cm long), we see a cable induced voltages that are not real, Phase-Earth and Neutral-Earth 50 to 90VAC a few milliamps.

If we are making good ground, we will / will measure Phase-Neutral 230VAC, 230VAC Phase-Earth and Neutral-Earth 3VCA at most if all goes well, quiet than it consumes the voltmeter / tester did not jump the differential (0 '03amp. in normal / housing facilities).
For reference, what we measure between Neutral-Earth, we see that we need between Phase-Earth.

Currently tuners / TV Schuko not use this cable with ground and this is a problem, all sources are switched EMI / RFI filter and these are discharged chassis, connect with your hand if a cable is connected to the chassis other team suffer a "good" download, jumping a spark for us is not fatal, for the electronics itself.
One trick to eliminate these pesky downloads, apart from giving ground to the computer chassis is to rotate 180 degrees making the plug, thereby change the phase (active connection) to the chassis, the chassis send Neutral and no suffer these discharges, check with isolated / disconnected from other computers or the results will not be real team.

On the ground of residence? Xxxx? generally you will have one single outlet per household, if you lift you will have another separate ground (according to law), measures you take and neighbor, use an extension of the necessary meters and midelas easly, as we have no use, you can use without problems an extension of 50 meters or more.
FN performs the same measurements, FT and NT and installation compared to you, so you'll know that this is every installation, then measures Vac between the two grounding.

I never saw this problem with LNB's caused by "installations of different lands", in blocks, is the same land.
On-site data network cable, only within the same building, "land" being necessary to bring the same if we leave the building and can not connect buildings with different ground networks or computers that connect networks to be burned ( this is literal, some saw burnt), connecting to isolate optical fiber.
Before networks with RG213 / RG58 / RG59 or similar cable (according impedance 50/75 ohms) even fatter as cable networks ONO.

Currently all these networks with fiber optic van, you also have LNB's with fiber optic connection, you would not have these problems, but they are not cheap.

Note: Use teflon glove or the like, is not a bad idea, after a few downloads in this work, you get used to them, leather gloves gardener type / work apart from uncomfortable, sweat are drivers.

Hopefully you do not have an old bi-Fasica of 125VAC installation, the 2 last I saw was in Cibeles, in the Post Office building, when it was Correos and another old building in the Puerta del Sol, this full 4 days ago.

Discuss the results with care and luck.
 
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Tururu

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My Satellite Setup
90cm motorised dishes(98x90)+fixed+multiLNB+24Unicable.
Currently 56 satellites, 61°West to 57°East.

Octagon SF8008 4K Twin, VU+Duo², VU+Ultimo4K.
Recycled as the owner.
My Location
North of Madrid (28703 Spain) -3Km of IKEA (40.545847, -3.612012).:-)
Deje algunas cosas en el tintero.
Si tienes contratado mas de 9KW de potencia puedes tener trifasica, si tienes menos, lo normal es monofasica, comenta realmente que tienes, que instalacion tienes??, sin olvidar los componentes del cuadro electrico que tengas.

Solo realiza las medidas solicitadas (nada mas, cuidado con los accidentes), indica el polimetro que tienes (si tienes), al ser normal, solo realiza mediciones entre 50-60Hz, el resto no medira nada, los polimetros/test VRMS son algo mas caros.
Intenta detallar tambien la toma de Tierra si sabes donde esta y lo que ves (pica, placa, pozo de tierras) y como esta el terreno de humedad, por desgracia en casas adosadas/chalet de algun amigo vi la pica de tierra clavada en los escombros de la obra, ni en tierra de la zona (sin comentarios).


Un chiste de cables Schuko.
R458156-07.jpg


Los normales soportan de 10 a 15Amp., son 2.300vatios-3.450vatios, si te lias, unos 1.900watios-2.760Watios(cos 0'8).
Si tenemos un alimentador o equipo chino (sin ofender) que tenga este cable, verificar la seccion del cable interno real que tiene, aparentemente es igual que todos por fuera/diametros externo, la diferencia es interna.

Los cables normales tienes 3x1mm² (<16amp. y <3metros), como minimo 3x0'75mm²(<9amp. y <3metros), los cables de alimentadores chinos pueden ser de 3x0'3mm²[menos de 690W de consumo], son 3 pelos realmente y en el peor de los casos 3x0'1mm² [menos de 190Watios de consumo], 1 pelo realmente, si alimentamos algo mas gordo, directamente ardera, en los 2 casos, se rompen facilmente los "pelos" y al producir falsos contactos el cable ardera tambien.
La clavija macho tambien es de pega, las patillas no son mazizas, estan huecas y se doblan facimente (cuidado si las pisas).
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Leave some things in the pipeline.
If you have hired 9KW more power you can have tri-phasic, if you have less, normal is monophasic, really says you have, you have ?? installation, not forgetting electric components box you have.

Only performs the requested action (nothing else, beware of accidents), indicating multimeter you have (if you have), to be normal, just makes measurements between 50-60Hz, the rest will measure no nothing, multimeters/test VRMS are somewhat more expensive.
Try also detail the ground plane if you know where you are and what you see (pica, plate, well land) and how this field moisture, unfortunately in townhouses/villa of some friends saw the ground rod driven into the debris from the work or ground area (no comments).


A joke Schuko cables.
R458156-07.jpg


Normal support 10 to 15Amp., Are 2.300vatios-3.450vatios, if you lees, a 1.900watios-2.760Watios (cos 0.8).
If we have a feeder or Chinese team (no offense) have this cable, verify the actual internal cable section having, apparently like all outside/external diameters, the difference is internal.

The normal wire have 3x1mm² (<16amp. And <3 meters), a minimum 3x0'75mm² (<9amp. And <3 meters), Chinese feeder cables can be 3x0'3mm² [less than 690W consumption] are 3 hairs and actually the worst 3x0'1mm² [consumer least 190Watios], 1 hair really if something fatter fed directly will burn, in the two cases, break easily the "hairs" false contacts and to produce the Cable will burn well.
The male plug is also glue, pins are not mazizas, are hollow and fácimente bend (careful if you step).
 
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Archive4

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Have just spoken to my client, George, re the LNB blowing between the two houses. His " preferred " electrician is not here at the moment and cannot visit until next week. Have refused to change the LNB or install the multi-switch until the earth / phase issue has been checked out. George is happy with this, as I´m not charging him for a new LNB every week until the problem is correctly resolved.
Honesty can be the best policy, sometimes!
 

joddle

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My Location
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Agree - best to be up front with people - they usually react a lot better - I always get suspicious when people dive in with quick solutions to problems which don't seem to be straightforward. Best to check out everything before even recomending any type of solution.
 
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The wind is back in our part of Spain, very bad today, but has been bad for a couple of days. It generates " beer tokens "!
Got a call from a Belgian estate agent I know to advise one of her clients was having problems with the tv reception. Went to look yesterday, this skew was slightly out, but the main problem was the lemon tree which has gone ballistic and was waving all the new shoots directly in the line of sight to Astra3. Told them to prune the tree! Easy beer tokens!
 

Tururu

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My Satellite Setup
90cm motorised dishes(98x90)+fixed+multiLNB+24Unicable.
Currently 56 satellites, 61°West to 57°East.

Octagon SF8008 4K Twin, VU+Duo², VU+Ultimo4K.
Recycled as the owner.
My Location
North of Madrid (28703 Spain) -3Km of IKEA (40.545847, -3.612012).:-)
The wind is back in our part of Spain, very bad today, but has been bad for a couple of days. It generates " beer tokens "!........Told them to prune the tree! Easy beer tokens!
:-bighappy:-clap:-hbbounce
 
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Had another good laugh today. Went to clean a chimney ( sideline work ) and had to take a friend to help take out and re-install the log burner, big heavy unit approx 85 kilos. While I was there, the client asked me " what tv system I have " as they had someone round about UK tv and was told the 1.45 prime they have wasn´t big enough to get uk tv, tried to sell them a new 1.9m for 800€, plus fitting! Needless to say I am going back next week, when the wind dies down, to correctly align the dish from Astra at 19.2 to 28.3. Someone in my neck of the woods is extracting the urine!
 

joddle

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My Satellite Setup
2x Pace 2600 C1 (in a box just in case) , 3 x Humax HD Foxstat (2 of which in store as spares) . 3x Manhatten Plaza - Pasat 2.4 PF dish mounted on flat roof with Invacom C120 quad LNB .
My Location
Massanassa, Valencia, Spain
Alas some people are either just plain dishonest or haven't a clue - and possibly both! Next door to our villa here in Javea the owner has been told the 1.3 he has on his roof with a clear view to the sky isn't big enough to get a good signal!! yet all day, despite heavy cloud and rain I have been getting rock steady reception on a 20 yr old 1.2 with a cheap LNB!!! It seem this business attracts some dreadful types and unknowing people get swept up - so its good job we have a load of decent ones on this forum!!!
 
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Just received a text message from the client I cleaned the chimney for today.
" Hi Brian. We have just lit the fire. Wow what a difference. Much cleaner and warmer, the draw is amazing. Thanks for a great job! "

I know I replaced the fire string on the door as well, but didn´t expect a message like that.

Guess for today, I´m a Black and White Wizard!
 
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Alas some people are either just plain dishonest or haven't a clue - and possibly both! Next door to our villa here in Javea the owner has been told the 1.3 he has on his roof with a clear view to the sky isn't big enough to get a good signal!! yet all day, despite heavy cloud and rain I have been getting rock steady reception on a 20 yr old 1.2 with a cheap LNB!!! It seem this business attracts some dreadful types and unknowing people get swept up - so its good job we have a load of decent ones on this forum!!!

In Xabia I could pick up BBC on my dog´s water bowl!
 

Lampard25

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You should come down my way every tom dick & turpin are here, they all think its easy on a clear day , anyway got soaked today but still the signals were fine. Onwards & upwards
 
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You should come down my way every tom dick & turpin are here, they all think its easy on a clear day , anyway got soaked today but still the signals were fine. Onwards & upwards

Rule 1. Don´t put dishes up in the rain! Rule 2. Don´t put dishes up in the rain! Rule 3 Kill Black Bess!
 

joddle

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2x Pace 2600 C1 (in a box just in case) , 3 x Humax HD Foxstat (2 of which in store as spares) . 3x Manhatten Plaza - Pasat 2.4 PF dish mounted on flat roof with Invacom C120 quad LNB .
My Location
Massanassa, Valencia, Spain
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Sorry Guys and Girls, one of my " kids " Billy Wizz " the cat was run over last night, don´t feel in the mood for the forum at the moment. He was only 2 1/2 years old. Will be off-line for a few days
 

Tururu

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My Satellite Setup
90cm motorised dishes(98x90)+fixed+multiLNB+24Unicable.
Currently 56 satellites, 61°West to 57°East.

Octagon SF8008 4K Twin, VU+Duo², VU+Ultimo4K.
Recycled as the owner.
My Location
North of Madrid (28703 Spain) -3Km of IKEA (40.545847, -3.612012).:-)
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