Receiver that can talk to a Ka band LNB

N

NoviceSat

Member
Messages
35
My Satellite Setup
Technomate 5300D M2 + 2600 + 80cm mesh dish
My Location
SW England
Can anybody recommend a good receiver to get Soarsat and drive a USALS setup?

I have a cheap and cheerful setup at the moment - a Technomate 2600 USALS motor driving an 80cm mesh dish and going through a Technomate TM5300D+ M2 receiver.

I can get 9.0E easily and I know I am closer to the Ireland spot than the Calais spot, so I thought I'd try to get Soarsat and "have a play" with a Ka band LNB. Unfortunately my Technomate receiver won't talk to the Ka LNB (It won't let me create a TP with 20GHz), and I have also now realised my box won't deal with DVB-S2. :-ohcrap

Would a TM 5402 receiver cope with a Ka band LNB? I'm trying to stay away from Linux boxes as I spend enough time debugging computers and want my satellite receiver to work as an appliance and not a computer!
 
Analoguesat

Analoguesat

Administrator
Staff member
Messages
47,869
Location
Scottish Borders
My Satellite Setup
TM 5402HD
Skybox F3
Sky+ UK.
My Location
Scottish Borders
Any HD receiver should work - someone on the forum here had it working not too long ago and listed the settings - have a trawl through the Saorsat threads :)

You wont stand much chance though unless your on the north Devon coast.
 
rolfw

rolfw

Believe it when I see it Admin.
Staff member
Messages
37,930
My Satellite Setup
Technomate 5402 HD M2 Ci, DM7000s, Transparent 80cm Dish, Moteck SG2100 DiseqC motor, lots of legacy gear. Meters: Satlook Digital NIT, Promax HD Ranger+ spectrum analyser.
My Location
Berkshire
Any receiver should be able to handle Ka band, you just need to set the local oscillator frequency to match the LNB for that satellite, then it will allow you to enter the transponder Frequency.
 
Channel Hopper

Channel Hopper

Suffering fools, so you don't have to.
Staff member
Messages
29,669
My Satellite Setup
A little less analogue, and a lot more crap.
My Location
UK
NoviceSat said:
(It won't let me create a TP with 20GHz), and I have also now realised my box won't deal with DVB-S2. :-ohcrap
Whilst the lack of DVBS2 is going to stop you completely, you could create a local oscillator frequency of something else (10GHz) and do the calculations mentally. I think the TM should scan and store the transponders anyway, confirming you are in a viable footprint, at least you can check before parting with any more cash beyond the Ka band LNB.
 
Z

zg3409

Member
Messages
46
My Satellite Setup
All sorts
My Location
Ireland
First you need to be living west of plymouth to be sure of a signal. If you are east of Plyouth then you may or may not get a signal. The futher east the less chance.

Do not use a mesh dish. You need a solid non fibreglass dish, probably a least 80cm in diameter. At 20Ghz a dish like this is much harder to align so be aware of that.

As you know the receiver must be capable of DVB-S2, and for your other needs USALS etc.

Regarding the LNB frequency ANY receiver will work. Simply input UNIVERSAL LNB, then set up a transposnder for 10.765 vertical 25000 1/2 FEC.

Ideally align the dish first using a normal LNB to a normal 9E transponder and then swap over to the LNB to the Saorsat one. This way you know you are pointing in the right direction.

When you finally get Saorsat working you can mount a normal LNB and a Saorsat LNB on the one motorised dish and switch between then using a DiSEqC or manual switch. As one of the LNBs will not be at the centre of the dish you may need to offset the actual posistion in the sky by a little. So for example you may need to set Saorsat to 14 degrees on USALS.

Let us know how you get on.
 
N

NoviceSat

Member
Messages
35
My Satellite Setup
Technomate 5300D M2 + 2600 + 80cm mesh dish
My Location
SW England
Thank you for the info zg3409 - you managed to answer my next question (based on another Saorsat post by huevos) which was what frequency should I be using. Am I right in saying the following?:
My Inverto Ka LNB has a L.O. of 21.20GHz and RTE1 is on 20185L, this means a downlink frequency of 21200-20185=1015MHz, adding that to a Ku L.O. of 9750MHz gives me an equivalent Ku value of 10.765GHz)

Is it possible to receive Ka frequencies with a mesh at all? I have spun the dish round with my sat meter and I do get a reasonable strength "beep" at 9.0E. I live near the coast (North Devon/Somerset area) so I'd prefer a mesh to cope with wind speeds.

I need to get a new receiver - I'm just trying to decide now whether to get a cheap DVB-S2 box or upgrade to a more expensive twin tuner 'use everyday' box.

I think I will be borderline reception (the TechTir article on Ka band reception was very useful), so I'll just have to wait for the next sunny day (or maybe they've all been used up for this year?)
 
Channel Hopper

Channel Hopper

Suffering fools, so you don't have to.
Staff member
Messages
29,669
My Satellite Setup
A little less analogue, and a lot more crap.
My Location
UK
NoviceSat said:
Is it possible to receive Ka frequencies with a mesh at all? I have spun the dish round with my sat meter and I do get a reasonable strength "beep" at 9.0E.
An 80cm dish should get the signals, but whether you are getting the transmissions or the blank carriers is down to your location, they will appear the same to your meter.
 
Z

zg3409

Member
Messages
46
My Satellite Setup
All sorts
My Location
Ireland
NoviceSat said:
Is it possible to receive Ka frequencies with a mesh at all?
Yes but it will probably act like a much smaller dish.

I have spun the dish round with my sat meter and I do get a reasonable strength "beep" at 9.0E.
Are you using the Saorsat KA LNB? If you are then yes a cheap beepy meter will help with alignment, no matter the receiver. However it will beep even if you are on the wrong spot.

I live near the coast (North Devon/Somerset area) so I'd prefer a mesh to cope with wind speeds.
I heard that the mesh is of no benefit in high winds. Better to use a quality dish. The signals at 20Ghz pass through the holes on a mesh dish. Best to use the proper dish.

I need to get a new receiver - I'm just trying to decide now whether to get a cheap DVB-S2 box or upgrade to a more expensive twin tuner 'use everyday' box.
That depends on your exact needs.
 
N

NoviceSat

Member
Messages
35
My Satellite Setup
Technomate 5300D M2 + 2600 + 80cm mesh dish
My Location
SW England
I decided to get "another toy" and ordered a TBS 5925 - which has now arrived. So I plugged it in and scanned 9.0E and got absolutely nothing! (Actually that's missing out a lot of hassle trying to get the USB drivers and software to actually work - "professional" might apply to the price and the feature list, but not to the quality of the (Windows-based) software!)

I have managed to get CrazyScan to work with it (again after several failed attempts), here is what I get with my standard Ku LNB with my 80cm mesh dish. The weather was overcast with the odd sunny spell. It is on a tripod and I've just "spun it round" and done a quick alignment with a SatMeter. It's probably not 100% on target. Also (note from another thread of mine) that the dish might not be 100% aligned...

ku9.0E-RFScan.png

My channel of choice for 9.0E is "Duna" (because it is strong and has V polarization) at 11.766GHz - it is perfectly watchable with no break-up. This would appear to have a RF level of -47dBm.

Now I put the Ka LNB in its place, and try a bit harder with the SatMeter (it is not possible for me to swap LNBs without knocking the satellite out of alignment - I don't have everything tightened-up). I obtained no channels at 10765V 25000 1/2 QPSK. So running CrazyScan again (the later versions support Inverto Ka LNB directly now :)), I see this:
ka_v5_9.0E-RFScan.png

Novice questions now:

I guess the "fat" humps are data channels?
It would appear my mesh dish is not very good at around 20GHz+ (you were right zg3409), but more importantly there doesn't look to be much for me at 20185L.
I'm confused why CrazySat says Vertical/Right and Horizontal/Left, when I'm supposed to use 10765 V on my receiver (that would imply L=V?)
Has anybody got a TBS to lock onto Ka channels? It appears as a strength of "60", but will not lock.
 
Z

zg3409

Member
Messages
46
My Satellite Setup
All sorts
My Location
Ireland
NoviceSat said:
I guess the "fat" humps are data channels?
Yes
It would appear my mesh dish is not very good at around 20GHz+ (you were right zg3409), but more importantly there doesn't look to be much for me at 20185L
If the humps are high then that's a fine signal..
I'm confused why CrazySat says Vertical/Right and Horizontal/Left, when I'm supposed to use 10765 V on my receiver (that would imply L=V?)
Yes you are correct. Crazyscan is back to front for our LNB. For uk vertical =LHCP=Saorsat=Red line (USA LNBs are different)
Has anybody got a TBS to lock onto Ka channels? It appears as a strength of "60", but will not lock.
There seems to be something at 20185 on your spectrum. The very last hump is narrower.I asked the designer of Crazyscan to add a special Saorsat KA LNB to the options, but I have not used the latest version of crazyscan for my tests. I will attach some scans shortly.
 
Z

zg3409

Member
Messages
46
My Satellite Setup
All sorts
My Location
Ireland
I have edited your scan. (first thumbnail) You are basically picking up 4 spots from the one satellite. It is the purple one that carries Saorsat. The others (green, orange and blue) will be different strengths depending on where in the UK you scan from. You should only choose to scan "vertical" as it makes it easier to display, and concentrate on the right half carriers which are all purple.

I am confused by what you show. On your purple I see 3 internet and possibly another internet or TV carrier.

On the purple beam for Ireland I see two internet carriers and one narrow TV carrier. This does not seem right. See thumbnail two for what you should see if picking up Irish spot.

Now looking at thumbnail 3 I done a scan myself near london to look at the France purple beam. It seems to have 4 internet carriers.

From what you have shown it seems as if you are more likely picking up the french spot but the carrier seems a little narrow. Can you try crazyscan a few times more to see of it looks different. Only scan vertical. Also try using universal LNB settings but vertical only and no 22Khz tone. With universal 20.185 will be left most on the display. (10.765)

You haven't said if you live west of Plymouth. You may be picking up the France signal, but your spectrum does not look like mine. Can you try a non PC based DVB-S2 receiver?
 

Attachments

Z

zg3409

Member
Messages
46
My Satellite Setup
All sorts
My Location
Ireland
Attached is another thumbnail. This shows using proper spectrum analyser the purple spot as received in Ireland. The two fat ones are internet and the TV carrier (shown with purple dot) is much narrower and always seems a little weaker than the wide internet carriers.
 

Attachments

Channel Hopper

Channel Hopper

Suffering fools, so you don't have to.
Staff member
Messages
29,669
My Satellite Setup
A little less analogue, and a lot more crap.
My Location
UK
zg3409 said:
Attached is another thumbnail. This shows using proper spectrum analyser the purple spot as received in Ireland. The two fat ones are internet and the TV carrier (shown with purple dot) is much narrower and always seems a little weaker than the wide internet carriers.
In Plymouth (east or west) there is absoutely no chance of anything like that scan.
 
Z

zg3409

Member
Messages
46
My Satellite Setup
All sorts
My Location
Ireland
In Plymouth (east or west) there is absoutely no chance of anything like that scan.
Channel hopper I don't understand your statement. West of plymouth you can indeed pick up the Irish purple spot, so the right hand half of the spectrum of everyone getting Saorsat should be like my spectrum. The left half is the green spot which may be weaker or stronger depending on location and the same with blue and orange spots.

If you visit the tooway (which beam should I use) webpage it actually recommends the Irish purple spot for anyone wanting two-way internet in plymouth.

finder.tooway-instal.com/fixe/pages/index.html

In other areas it does not recommend purple, but you can normally pick up a nearby purple spot. The Irish purple spot is the only one with TV, so once you are closer to the French or East Scottish purple spot you cannot get Saorsat TV.

See thumbnail
 

Attachments

Last edited by a moderator:
N

NoviceSat

Member
Messages
35
My Satellite Setup
Technomate 5300D M2 + 2600 + 80cm mesh dish
My Location
SW England
Thanks for your pictures zg3409 - you've helped me understand my scan results a lot better.
I am not unable to get the satellite out till the weekend - so no new scans till then.
I am east of Plymouth.
I have no DVB-S2 decoder apart from my TBS USB box.

I am still confused why it won't lock. Let's assume I am getting the French spot, shouldn't I be able to lock onto those data streams? I am still trying to configure my system so all these tools work - the ones supplied by TBS don't seem that great.
 
Analoguesat

Analoguesat

Administrator
Staff member
Messages
47,869
Location
Scottish Borders
My Satellite Setup
TM 5402HD
Skybox F3
Sky+ UK.
My Location
Scottish Borders
NoviceSat said:
I am still confused why it won't lock. Let's assume I am getting the French spot, shouldn't I be able to lock onto those data streams?
Its quite possible they are just blank carriers and there is nothing to lock onto.
 
Z

zg3409

Member
Messages
46
My Satellite Setup
All sorts
My Location
Ireland
NoviceSat said:
Thanks for your pictures zg3409 - you've helped me understand my scan results a lot better.I am not unable to get the satellite out till the weekend - so no new scans till then.I am east of Plymouth.I have no DVB-S2 decoder apart from my TBS USB box.I am still confused why it won't lock. Let's assume I am getting the French spot, shouldn't I be able to lock onto those data streams? I am still trying to configure my system so all these tools work - the ones supplied by TBS don't seem that great.
No you will not be able to lock on to any of the data streams. In the past satellite internet used ordinary data streams, however this newest Satellite uses a special wide bandwidth downlink. It is not ordinary DVB-S. The link has some fancy features. Firstly they are all encrypted, with a different encryption for every individual user meaning a valid user cannot see other people's traffic. Also the link is designed to still work in heavy rain or even snow. The bit-rate of the link is continously variable, even for each user. If the signal to you is getting weak the satellite can adjust it's rate just for you to ensure you get a reliable link (if a bit slower than usual). Similarly the uplink power and bit rate is automatically adjusted. This allows them to use higher bit rates during good weather without fear of some users dropping out in bad weather. The receivers for tooway internet are custom made and are very similar to cable modems. The transmitters are very fancy, they have a built in beeper that helps you align the dish. It will not beep at any old satellite, it gets readings direct from the receiver which tells it when to beep and when to change the beeps. It's a very fancy setup. The newest transmitters only need one cable between the dish and the receiver with the transmit, receive and power all on the one cable. The system can also handle telephone calls with some providers offering VOIP based call packages. Supposedly the call quality is very good but it will always have the satellite delay problem.Having said all this Satellite internet is very expensive and ping times are very slow. If you can get even 3G broadband via a dongle will probably be better.
 
N

NoviceSat

Member
Messages
35
My Satellite Setup
Technomate 5300D M2 + 2600 + 80cm mesh dish
My Location
SW England
Been out again today. It is overcast and I've left the Satmeter in-between the LNB and receiver, so signal levels are a bit lower. It looks the same as last week (ie: the last hump is not as wide as the other 3). I've also done a standard Ku scan (V only, can't select 22KHz tone as it is greyed out). I've also done a scan around 10765V to give a better idea of the size of this hump. Finally I did a blindscan (still learning this tool), and by the looks of the plot it would appear to be a blank carrier. Shame. I thought I might get Saorsat as I am as close to the Irish spot as I am to the French spot - give or take a few Kms..
zg3409 - saw your post on another forum about signal strength at points along the A55 - nice! Might want to try the A39 from Barnstaple next!
So it looks like I have no way of identifying this signal or even Satellite? (I know I'm pointing at 9.0E, but there's nothing I can decode to confirm this?)

Note to admins - sorry if I've created lots of posts I was having problems attaching pictures to my message.
 

Attachments

Z

zg3409

Member
Messages
46
My Satellite Setup
All sorts
My Location
Ireland
My conclusion would be that you are closer to the French beam. Your are getting 4 humps. I picked up 4 humps near london which was definitely inside the French coverage. The narrow blank carrier may be a deliberate jamming signal to block Saorsat in the UK. The Irish beam only has 3 humps.

You could try going portable more west. My portable setup is a 12V to 240V 300W inverter which costs about £50 from Argos that plugs into the cigarette lighter. This powers everything.
 
strs65

strs65

Regular Member
Messages
688
My Satellite Setup
Decoders: VU+ Uno, DR.HD F15
DVB cards: TBS6983, TBS 6925
Dish 1: Tecatel 1.10m
LNB1: Smart Oxid
Motor: Amiko DM3800
Dish 2: Gibertini 125L, with actuator
LNB2: Invacom QDF-031
My Location
Greece (Crete - Chania)
NoviceSat said:
Been out again today. It is overcast and I've left the Satmeter in-between the LNB and receiver, so signal levels are a bit lower. It looks the same as last week (ie: the last hump is not as wide as the other 3). I've also done a standard Ku scan (V only, can't select 22KHz tone as it is greyed out). I've also done a scan around 10765V to give a better idea of the size of this hump. Finally I did a blindscan (still learning this tool), and by the looks of the plot it would appear to be a blank carrier. Shame. I thought I might get Saorsat as I am as close to the Irish spot as I am to the French spot - give or take a few Kms..
zg3409 - saw your post on another forum about signal strength at points along the A55 - nice! Might want to try the A39 from Barnstaple next!
So it looks like I have no way of identifying this signal or even Satellite? (I know I'm pointing at 9.0E, but there's nothing I can decode to confirm this?)

Note to admins - sorry if I've created lots of posts I was having problems attaching pictures to my message.
Why are you using a Ku-band LO frequency (9750MHz)? You will only get confused by it. CrazyScan, at least the latest versions, support Ka-band LO frequencies, such as 21200MHz of Inverto LNB's.

PS. I don't have a LNB for Ka-band, so I cannot answer any specific question about it.
 

Attachments

Top