Which C-BAND lnb, 5g ?

[John]

For John from #52.
Definitely an engineered filter that has been hand tuned to reject interference. And that's a good thing.
What would be interesting is a side by side comparison of rejection using your combination and a 3.4-4.2 GHz lnb.
I think it would be interesting for those who still own lnb's that cover the frequency range.
I could akin it to taking a photo of the sun and adjusting the f-stop to expose the image correctly or placing a filter (your setup) before the lens to attenuate light.
What isn't touted by lnb, lnbf manufacturers is if the 5G filtering is applied before the low noise amplifier semiconductor, in between it and the mixer. Or after, but before the coaxial cable connector.
But your Alga filter settles any doubt any day of the week.

Will respond asap - busy busy here.

 

[Lion Lion]

Can anyone tell what is current 5g spectrum in Spain ?
Will 6.25-4.2 ghz pass filter work in Spain?

 

[John]

>>"Will 6.25-4.2 ghz pass filter work in Spain?"<< Should that read a rx pass band of 3.625 ~ 4.2GHz ?.
Just done a quick Google and a report from May 2024 states that Spain relies on the 3.5GHz portion of the band for it's 5G use so you should be protected with that filter assuming the cell tower is not directly on your doorstep, say less than 500mtrs away.
Can you take a pic of the said filter and post.

 

[Channel Hopper]

Can anyone tell what is current 5g spectrum in Spain ?
Will 6.25-4.2 ghz pass filter work in Spain?

You're in London, why ask ?

 

[Lion Lion]

I need c band al it in Spain as well

 

[satesco]

The discussion about C-band and 5G, for those who receive this band and have problems with interference, makes me think of the sad and paradoxical situation we are in for the reception. Specifically, we are caught between two technological eras in C-band. On the one hand, we use the same type of antennas from the last century, and on the other, transmission is done using the techniques of these last years.

Who would have imagined 4G, or 5G, in the '80s or '90s that this technology would use the C-band? If digital transmission develops at this rate, the C-band may be expanded, as it is now, but not in current use.

LNBs for 5G are just palliatives for the moment that don't solve the interference problem. For example, the Mediastar 5G working between 3.7 and 4.3GHz doesn't cancel them between 3700-3800 MHz. You can see this on the C-band spectrum obtained at 57.0E

Suppose you can see interference on the spectrum even with antennas over 4 m. In that case, I wonder if, in the (immediate) future, the C-band may still be relevant for enthusiasts who cannot keep up with the latest developments in satellite reception and transmission.
This hobby is becoming increasingly expensive for those with small pockets, like others in technology.
This development should not surprise us since the dream of any reception enthusiast is to have the giant antennas he sees from the big satellite operators in his backyard.

However, the situation is not reassuring in the Ku-band either, where we can observe the same phenomenon of terrestrial interference on some portions of the band, although it is not discussed on the forum, as if it did not exist.
If this trend continues, we will discuss the same phenomenon in the Ku-band tomorrow or the day after tomorrow.

 

[John]

The discussion about C-band and 5G, for those who receive this band and have problems with interference, makes me think of the sad and paradoxical situation we are in for the reception. Specifically, we are caught between two technological eras in C-band. On the one hand, we use the same type of antennas from the last century, and on the other, transmission is done using the techniques of these last years.

Who would have imagined 4G, or 5G, in the '80s or '90s that this technology would use the C-band? If digital transmission develops at this rate, the C-band may be expanded, as it is now, but not in current use.

LNBs for 5G are just palliatives for the moment that don't solve the interference problem. For example, the Mediastar 5G working between 3.7 and 4.3GHz doesn't cancel them between 3700-3800 MHz. You can see this on the C-band spectrum obtained at 57.0E

Suppose you can see interference on the spectrum even with antennas over 4 m. In that case, I wonder if, in the (immediate) future, the C-band may still be relevant for enthusiasts who cannot keep up with the latest developments in satellite reception and transmission.
This hobby is becoming increasingly expensive for those with small pockets, like others in technology.
This development should not surprise us since the dream of any reception enthusiast is to have the giant antennas he sees from the big satellite operators in his backyard.

However, the situation is not reassuring in the Ku-band either, where we can observe the same phenomenon of terrestrial interference on some portions of the band, although it is not discussed on the forum, as if it did not exist.
If this trend continues, we will discuss the same phenomenon in the Ku-band tomorrow or the day after tomorrow.

Very well put satesco, each C band hobbyist is governed by their own circumstances as to what they can do to obtain some sort of satisfactory reception - cell tower / towers proximity / local planning for large dishes etc.
Iv'e come to the conclusion that my Cband DX days are 80% ruined at the moment and will probably get worse due to 5G interference from mainly two local towers about 300mtrs and 600mtrs away and i'm now in the process of constructing a 'lnb changer' for my 2.2m PF with a cheap lnbf for Ext C and a TiTanium 5G Red for the range 3.8GHz upwards just to get me some sort of reduced performance Cband reception, along with Ka / Ku / Extended Ku .
Iv'e tested from the very cheap 5G lnb's upwards and they are not suitable , even an expensive Norsat 5G 3.82~4.2G lnb which cured about 75% of the problem on it's own and had to have an ALGA RED 5G filter on the front end of the Norsat to get about 95% interference free useage. Work on the prototype multi lnb changer continues and will be put in storage untill the final day of dedicated Cband rx becomes a reality.

 

[satesco]

Very well put satesco, each C band hobbyist is governed by their own circumstances as to what they can do to obtain some sort of satisfactory reception - cell tower / towers proximity / local planning for large dishes etc.
Iv'e come to the conclusion that my Cband DX days are 80% ruined at the moment and will probably get worse due to 5G interference from mainly two local towers about 300mtrs and 600mtrs away and i'm now in the process of constructing a 'lnb changer' for my 2.2m PF with a cheap lnbf for Ext C and a TiTanium 5G Red for the range 3.8GHz upwards just to get me some sort of reduced performance Cband reception, along with Ka / Ku / Extended Ku .
Iv'e tested from the very cheap 5G lnb's upwards and they are not suitable , even an expensive Norsat 5G 3.82~4.2G lnb which cured about 75% of the problem on it's own and had to have an ALGA RED 5G filter on the front end of the Norsat to get about 95% interference free useage. Work on the prototype multi lnb changer continues and will be put in storage untill the final day of dedicated Cband rx becomes a reality.

It is good that you are considering a rotator/changer for your LNBs for the three bands. At least, if you don't get what you want on one, you can have something else on the other.
That way, you can console your passionate soul if you are disappointed with a C-band.
Unfortunately, no matter how good your results on a band are, you will be frustrated and sad anyway. You can't separate a passion into pieces. It's whole or not at all.
Metaphorically speaking, that lnb changer is a transition from one state of mind/soul to another, one of highs and lows.

I don't mean to be too critical, but the 5G LNBs being sold now have a commercial value first and then a technically precarious one.
The manufacturers of such LNBs have realized that the C-band bandwidth is getting narrower because of the 5G signal.
Officially, many satellite operators must comply with the FCC's (Federal Communications Commission) decision to allocate the frequency band from 3.7 to 4.2 GHz.
However, this band is much narrower, namely, from 3.8 to 4.2GHz, because 5G has become even more aggressive, and in many cases, it affects even 3.8GHz.
Here is, for example, how the signal received with a Mediastar 5G lnb (3.7-4.2GHz) and a Titanium 5G Red(3.8-4.2GHz) looks on the spectrum.
The test was done at 93.5E on an Indian satellite, G-17.
I used a 90's Taiwanese lnb, which has a filter; there is no big difference between it and Mediastar 5G.

 

[anto@]

Titanium lnb filter 5 G

 

[John]

Regarding my personal battle with 5G interference - @anto@ and myself have been doing nearly the same thing together but didn't know it ....
I obtained a Titanium 5G RED C138 lnbf last week and first did a bench comparison test, ( not on a satellite) , between the C138 5G lnbf and a very very expensive Norsat 3200F-BPF-8 5G lnb .
I was quite surprised, considering the large price difference, at the very similar performance plots when the two items were pointed directly at my headache 5G cell tower 300mtrs away which is kicking out two powerful 5G frequencies at the moment as indicated on the analyser grab. The Tit C138 response started to drop off from 3.885 GHz downwards on it's way to the band edge of the 5G 3.799GHz signal - the Norsat did not drop down in this same area and i found this to be a bit of a disadvantage . I'm a really big fan of Norsat lnb's but in this case where 5G is involved it was letting through just a little bit too much of 5G at the 3.799GHz area.
With both items on the dish it was the same scenario.
Due to the onslaught of 5G interference to my dedicated tunable Cband installation iv'e decided to construct an 'lnb changer' to my 2.2 PF antenna and incorporate a simpler Cband set-up comprising of a 5G Tit C138 lnbf, a separate 4.5~4.8GHz lnbf, a modified PF feed on an Inverto Ka/Ku lnbf, and at some stage to transfer my Extended Ku lnbf onto the new changer for the 2.2 Elite PF dish and possibly venture into Xband equipment onto the changer at some future stage.
Here's a few pics relating to my words above ...
5G interference video, which also shows the destruction that happens further up the band to around the 4.068 GHz area - -

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[anto@]

Test done with LNB filter 5 G
satmaximum and bwei

I made these 2 videos some time now the conditions had gotten much worse, to the point of not seeing any CH

 

[moonbase]

Some good testing results @anto@ and @John . thank you for sharing.

The Titanium RED C138 looks good, seems to be offering great value for money performance compared to the Norsat.
Perhaps this is the way to go re 5G, simply strap on a Titanium with a polo pipe and jobs a good 'un.

I have the Titanium RED C238 'ere, just need to sand the feed barrel a little to get it to fit into a polo pipe and i will be strapping up.

 

[John]

Regarding my personal battle with 5G interference - @anto@ and myself have been doing nearly the same thing together but didn't know it ....
I obtained a Titanium 5G RED C138 lnbf last week and first did a bench comparison test, ( not on a satellite) , between the C138 5G lnbf and a very very expensive Norsat 3200F-BPF-8 5G lnb .
I was quite surprised, considering the large price difference, at the very similar performance plots when the two items were pointed directly at my headache 5G cell tower 300mtrs away which is kicking out two powerful 5G frequencies at the moment as indicated on the analyser grab. The Tit C138 response started to drop off from 3.885 GHz downwards on it's way to the band edge of the 5G 3.799GHz signal - the Norsat did not drop down in this same area and i found this to be a bit of a disadvantage . I'm a really big fan of Norsat lnb's but in this case where 5G is involved it was letting through just a little bit too much of 5G at the 3.799GHz area.
With both items on the dish it was the same scenario.
Due to the onslaught of 5G interference to my dedicated tunable Cband installation iv'e decided to construct an 'lnb changer' to my 2.2 PF antenna and incorporate a simpler Cband set-up comprising of a 5G Tit C138 lnbf, a separate 4.5~4.8GHz lnbf, a modified PF feed on an Inverto Ka/Ku lnbf, and at some stage to transfer my Extended Ku lnbf onto the new changer for the 2.2 Elite PF dish and possibly venture into Xband equipment onto the changer at some future stage.
Here's a few pics relating to my words above ...
5G interference video, which also shows the destruction that happens further up the band to around the 4.068 GHz area - -

.............................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

View attachment 156661View attachment 156662View attachment 156663View attachment 156664

Here's a pic of the 5G Tit C138 lnbf shown as a temp lash up on the 2.2m PF to get an idea first to see if it was worth carrying on using it on the new lnb changer - it was set to the dish factory focal point of 755mm, scalar plate set roughly in the right area. On my previous dedicated motorised set up the actual best focal point position was slightly different. The new 2.2m changer has motorised variable focal point position adjustment to enable fine tuning of different lnb feeds etc.
So this temp setup is not quite tuned to perfection but i thought i would have a look at 70°West PAL DX signals that i had pretty good reception with before 5G came to town in my area.
I am quite impressed with the temp results from 70° W PAL seeing that 5G is now operating on my doorstep - it even captured a digital channel, but the weather here at the moment is heavy rain on and off.
I'll post a vid asap
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[anto@]

in this video you can see how the 5G interference has been canceled by 98% over my entire polar arc visible in C band
starting from 87.5 east to 58 west,
in the west I can even reach 65 but the plants don't allow me to see
but in KU at 63 west I get the signals correctly

 

[John]

Here's a pic of the 5G Tit C138 lnbf shown as a temp lash up on the 2.2m PF to get an idea first to see if it was worth carrying on using it on the new lnb changer - it was set to the dish factory focal point of 755mm, scalar plate set roughly in the right area. On my previous dedicated motorised set up the actual best focal point position was slightly different. The new 2.2m changer has motorised variable focal point position adjustment to enable fine tuning of different lnb feeds etc.
So this temp setup is not quite tuned to perfection but i thought i would have a look at 70°West PAL DX signals that i had pretty good reception with before 5G came to town in my area.
I am quite impressed with the temp results from 70° W PAL seeing that 5G is now operating on my doorstep - it even captured a digital channel, but the weather here at the moment is heavy rain on and off.
I'll post a vid asap
..................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

View attachment 156669

Here's a quick vid of the 70° West PAL reception from the temp lash up using the Titanium C138 5G lnbf. - this is about the same as pre -5G days.
There's a chance this will improve once a dedicated accurate setup plus added motorised focal point adjustment has been made once on the new lnb changer.
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[John]

This little TiT C138 5G lnbf still has me quite impressed - it's managed to capture two Digitals off of 70° West
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[s-band]

I'm using a 1.8m PF dish and my horizon is about 55E to 53W, limited by trees. At the far east position around 57E, I get strong 5G interference which overloads the system. From about 45E to 53W it's only the direct interference that causes trouble below 3.8GHz. There is a clear gap around 3.74GHz which is usable.
Looking at the noise output from the Tit, it appears that there is probably some gain before the first filter since the noise and signal drop off at similar rates. Blue = 18V, Magenta = 13V



Pointing at the east horizon, the NJR LNB + Av-Comm (3.7-4.2 plot) overloads and interference affects most of the band. The Tit remains clean (3.8-4.2 plot).



As with all plate polarisers, it's hard to find the optimum position relative to the feed probes. Checking it on 40.5W RHCP against the NJR + AV-comm, the performance was similar at the top (4-4.2GHz) but was a few dB down between 3.8 and 3.9GHz. This makes a big difference as most signals are close to threshold on the 1.8m dish. Note that the CS plots were at different times of day and there is some variation due to that.



It would be nice to try the Tit with an AV-Comm but one or the other need to be modified to make them fit together. Would I recommend it? In @John 's case, probably as it seems to work in his situation (maybe better still with the AV Comm). If there's a section of arc where a filter isn't needed then keep the other options for that. For anyone in an area with a lot of 5G nearby, it looks like the cheapest solution. For me, there's not much to the east that I can see that interests me and the NJR etc works fine over most of the range. If I had a bigger dish and a lower horizon, I might have a different view.

 

[John]

I'm using a 1.8m PF dish and my horizon is about 55E to 53W, limited by trees. At the far east position around 57E, I get strong 5G interference which overloads the system. From about 45E to 53W it's only the direct interference that causes trouble below 3.8GHz. There is a clear gap around 3.74GHz which is usable.
Looking at the noise output from the Tit, it appears that there is probably some gain before the first filter since the noise and signal drop off at similar rates. Blue = 18V, Magenta = 13V

View attachment 156816

Pointing at the east horizon, the NJR LNB + Av-Comm (3.7-4.2 plot) overloads and interference affects most of the band. The Tit remains clean (3.8-4.2 plot).

View attachment 156814 View attachment 156815

As with all plate polarisers, it's hard to find the optimum position relative to the feed probes. Checking it on 40.5W RHCP against the NJR + AV-comm, the performance was similar at the top (4-4.2GHz) but was a few dB down between 3.8 and 3.9GHz. This makes a big difference as most signals are close to threshold on the 1.8m dish. Note that the CS plots were at different times of day and there is some variation due to that.

View attachment 156812 View attachment 156813

It would be nice to try the Tit with an AV-Comm but one or the other need to be modified to make them fit together. Would I recommend it? In @John 's case, probably as it seems to work in his situation (maybe better still with the AV Comm). If there's a section of arc where a filter isn't needed then keep the other options for that. For anyone in an area with a lot of 5G nearby, it looks like the cheapest solution. For me, there's not much to the east that I can see that interests me and the NJR etc works fine over most of the range. If I had a bigger dish and a lower horizon, I might have a different view.

Good info on the graphics G ..... >> " If there's a section of arc where a filter isn't needed " << .... Good point, snag is with me is that i have the 5G cell transmissions spread out over about four active cells ranging from the closest at 300 yds away at due South and the other three that are around just over 1/2 a mile away scattered at around 35° W / 40°W and about 58°W - Cband DX work is almost a thing of the past for me .

 

[s-band]

@John I used to envy your view of 70W but now trees are a bonus providing shielding to some extent
40.5W

The downside:
57W