Astra 2E: Iberia & Balearics Reports

[RichardinSpain]

It would appear to be a common occurance across the region. I have contacted Huevos who has noted approx 0.5dB loss on average, in my area it would appear to be 1.5 dB loss, "summer effect"? Do not know yet, but will continue to test my own dish and others I have fitted locally. Seems to be affecting offset and pf with equall effect.

I think as you get further down the coast the signal drops, I think i am perhaps on the boundary, back in Feb i was getting 50-54% on 2f (bbc1 and itvhd) and as from the weekend i'm lucky to get 37% at some points in the day (threshold of receiver 37%). Still i was doing quite well , i only have a 1.2 tecatel, Think it maybe time for an upgrade

 

[Huevos]

Hexah, I'm sure you're on a wind-up. 1.8m dish 0.5º off axis has 42dBi gain at 11.7 GHz. 2.4m dish also has 42dBi gain at 0.5º off axis. But satellites at 28E don't wander around to that degree. If you point the dish at 28.35E you are always going to be within 0.25º of every satellite on the slot. Gain figures for 0.25º off axis are 46dBi for a 2.4m dish and 44dBi for a 1.8m dish. And things aren't even as bad as that because Eutelsat is FEC 2/3 and can still be easily received at 38dBi which corresponds to a 2.4m dish 0.7º off axis.

 

[altman]

is there a pilot tone, like a unmodulated carrier, with a known frequency being transmitted on the KU band somewhere?
in the analogue days I retuned a few DROs by "ear" using a few known good lnbs for reference, now in the digital age, if they are off by more than what the tuners AFC can compensate they are garbage.

I'm teaching an old MTI c120 some new tricks and as the DRO adjusting bolts are on the cover, every time I open it the LO changes a bit, and I have no way to know how much

 

[Archive4]

I have been at this satellite lark for coming up to three decades .............

Even Tolken could have used less words to say what I think you were saying.

That said, at least this Texan can now advise all future clients to use an offset dish in the Costa Blanca, in case of heavy snow

 

[lovelyperson]

............

That said, at least this Texan can now advise all future clients to use an offset dish in the Costa Blanca, in case of heavy snow

¿¿¿¿¿ SNOW ???? .....remember being delayed teeing-off by 20 minutes at the golf course in Quesada due to frost but thats the nearest I have seen in 20years.

As you saw yesterday with the cloudy weather, reception was variable with the smaller dishes (1.4m) but friend in Torrevieja said 1.9m was ok.

¿ BP, when was the last time you had rain where U are ?

Looking at the forecast for the rest of this month don't think we will need ski's!

 

[mickwig]

The snow thing was for the Western Europe thread. Not so bad this year, but sometimes ...

 

[Huevos]

¿¿¿¿¿ SNOW ????[...] when was the last time you had rain where U are ?

There's snow every year within 10 minutes of here. And yesterday it was raining quite heavy.

 

[mickwig]

I woke up under 1 inch of snow on fresh may moring somewhere near Burgos - only once though.

 

[hexah]

is there a pilot tone, like a unmodulated carrier, with a known frequency being transmitted on the KU band somewhere?

Yes, there is a beacon which transmits an identifying signal from each satellite which is part of the telemetry system. Eirps can be rather low because the satellite companies like SES and Eutelsat use big to huge sized dishes in their dish farms (lucky gits).

Llew's Promax HD Ranger + is designed to detect the beacon on a spectrum sweep as well as a lot of other options. To say it is not cheap is a huge understatement. People have used speccys to look at them but it is a laborious process. Search for eutelsat beacon or astra satellite beacon for examples. Satellites with C band transmissions also have C band beacons, e.g. search for Intelsat 10-02 beacon, which may be easier to grab as the eirp is usually similar to the KU band signal.

in the analogue days I retuned a few DROs by "ear" using a few known good lnbs for reference, now in the digital age, if they are off by more than what the tuners AFC can compensate they are garbage.

The AFC grab range for modern receivers is around +/- 10 MHz so it must be interesting to guess the LO change and see what happens at the receiver! I think it was easier to do in the analogue era, the idea of digital automatically being better is a dangerous idea. There has been some significant de-evoloution in domestic satellite equipment in this digital era, on the other hand the professional equipment is now incredible handheld multi functional stuff that replaces racks of gear. Not that I have any of it.

 

[hexah]

Hexah, I'm sure you're on a wind-up. 1.8m dish 0.5º off axis has 42dBi gain at 11.7 GHz. 2.4m dish also has 42dBi gain at 0.5º off axis. But satellites at 28E don't wander around to that degree. If you point the dish at 28.35E you are always going to be within 0.25º of every satellite on the slot. Gain figures for 0.25º off axis are 46dBi for a 2.4m dish and 44dBi for a 1.8m dish. And things aren't even as bad as that because Eutelsat is FEC 2/3 and can still be easily received at 38dBi which corresponds to a 2.4m dish 0.7º off axis.

The last time there was a discussion of 0.2 degree spaced satellites among us owners of big dishes there was general agreement.

My experience over the decades is of very clear separate peaks using a 2m with the co-sited satellites. Anyone setting up a big dish will have noticed that. Although its possible that the error correction in digital masks that, it is unmistakable and entirely repeatable with analogue. Granularity is extremely fine with a locking bar, and too coarse with an actuator.


So to return to a first principles common sense description of the problem:

using a single dish when wanted channels are on two different though co-sited satellites with slightly different footprints with the classic fringe (out of intended service area) problem of radiated signal intensities which vary by transponder and varied mux transmission characteristics, means having to proritise dish focus on one set of channels and accept that the other set is going to be marginal and could break up at any time. Some unfortunate people are having to put up with the stronger set of channels being prone to break up at times and the weaker set of channels becoming unreliable and frequent break up of reception is something they have to put up with.

So at that point it is clear that using two big dishes is a possibility, each focused on the weakest of the channel in the sets required. As has been discussed before.

The scenario for most people in Spain is like this:

If I lived in Spain I would use a multiswitch system to have satellite in every room that needed it. IRS demands at least a dish size up anyway to ensure good CNR and MER, but even without a multiswitch based distribution system I always go up at least one dish size for a better margin (remember I could use a sly zone 1 mini dish here in the uk but I use an 80cm for better margin as per SES IRS recommendations). The aim is constant reception 24/7 without breakup regardless of the weather at ground level or in the atmosphere, so I don't get moaned at.

So then I would prepare for the worst case scenario which is a good margin for a multiswitch distribution system with long cables due to the dish being in the garden, in torrential rain with weak out of intended service area signals using FEC 9/10 (i.e. part of enforced marginality by a broadcaster).

Dish gain specifications are not really important. Link budget calculations are for served areas, not for the volatile conditions of fringe areas. This was established in the 1980s when fringe reception started. What is important is the margin. The bigger the dish the more margin you gain. We are talking about fringe reception, out of the intended service area, the signal weakened by beam shaping and intentional adverse transmission characteristics, where uncontrollable upper atmosphere thermal electrical activity and surface weather conditions have a disproportionate effect leading to sudden dramatic drops in signal, eroding the margin very rapidly.

So if I moved to a part of Spain where people moved from 1.2m to 1.5m I'd go straight to 2m because they aren't much more expensive than 1.8m but the margin and future proofing is so much better. If I moved to a part of Spain where people moved from 1.4m or 1.6m dishes to 1.8m then I would move straight to 2.3m or 2.4m. If I moved to a part of Spain where people moved from 2.3 or 2.4m, well I wouldn't move to that part of Spain because that is getting into the Cyprus nightmare situation of 3.8m! And look at reception in Cyprus now.


I note that the various people I have recommended to get dishes over the size commonly used in the areas of France or Spain they were in and occasionally recommended separate dishes over offset multi LNB rigs, and who I have given my view of the risks and benefits to, and who have taken my suggestions (and others), have never come back and complained about weather related reception problems despite some areas getting monsoon type rains at certain times of year.


When setting up a two dish system, the dish set on the western most satellite is put the the west of it and brought back slowly to peak, and the other dish would approach from the easterly satellite from the east. This is to try and get around the problem of digital error correction blunting the peaks. Its annoying because the digital signal is modulated on a wave of carrier energy which will have a pin prick peak of intensity (dialing in on the beacon may help, the problem is being able to resolve it).

continued in the next post

 

[hexah]

continued from the last post


This reminds me of long distance terrestrial reception. Many people don't like the bigger aerials required, they try to get away with smaller aerials and the crap installs just add to the problem. Again its all about margin and what comes in is the most important part. Once people understand that the x directors (and similar designs) act like a wave guide and have a more consistent even gain response and are not just a way of charging more for the same thing, then they realize the big x aerial is essential in the same way that people in Spain need to realize the big dish is far superior and not much more expensive than the one they have which does not give a proper margin. Satellite installations are much easier to get right than terrestrial. I have seen so many poor rural installations of big aerials and phased arrays (there are a couple of recent installs near here). For example only one chimney bracket where there should be two or even three, its not to spread the wind load (though it helpfully does), its because rigidity helps to maintain the margin. The phased arrays are on one chimney bracket and don't have x elements, which is ridiculous. I would use three chimney brackets well spaced out to make it rigid as well as to protect the chimney. If it was installed in Spain by one of the many stetson wearers it would probably be on a 6 inch standoff bracket bolted onto the top of the chimney.

Another point of comparison with Spanish satellite and general terrestrial dx is the vicious cycle of upgrading where new receivers and LNBs and feedhorns are bought when it is the dish size that is the problem. With terrestrial dx people used to do the same despite the simple two stage amplifier method being well established for decades (low gain masthead, variable high gain at television), people would fanny around buying all sorts of electronic bits and pieces. Getting a decent aerial array was the most important part but most people had loads of gear with woeful arrays and the results to match. There was all sorts of incompetence about mounting arrays with some spectacular self inflicted wind failures (a few brackets short usually). I built my own six element Band I array, which also did well on Band III, and to prove its superiority all I had to do was switch to the crossed Band I dipoles which were just about ok in the lift of the decade. How many six element Band I arrays have you seen? Big yet they don't even catch the wind very much. But that is what it took to get good results using cheap amplifiers whereas most people spent their money on expensive metal box Wolsey amplifiers and the like and used cheap old H aerials or combined I and III aerials and had comparatively poor results.

Likewise in Spain people need to realize a big dish that provides a big margin is whats needed. There is no realistic alternative. People must budget for dishes when they buy a house in Spain and they need to have a place in the garden where it (or they) can go. Even those people who live off grid in a wig wam or yurt can get a big dish and use a deaf 12v camping receiver without problems. A budget of €500 to €1,500 should get all the dishes, mounts, cables and switches for any house with enough left to buy some evergreen bushes to landscape around the dishes.

What we are talking about is risk and dish phobia. In my view the cost is nothing compared to the cost of the house and how long the dish can be made to last for when looked after.

Because I would buy a spare feed holder or two per dish, replace all the nuts with A2 stainless steel, paint it to blend it in with the garden and waterproof every part of it I would expect it it to last many decades. My ancient 2m is still totally functional so in the Spanish climate I would expect to get at least 50 years out of a Famaval type metal dish. So for that reason and the fact that big dishes are cheap in Spain compared to here I would be happy to go straight to buying several big dishes anyway because if both were not used for 28.2e one could be used for something else or in the worst case go into the garage.


In my opinion, paying for big dishes when you move into a house is a form of future proofing, it will work out cheaper than the people who get stuck in vicious cycles of upgrades with expensive receivers and new slightly larger dishes every five or six years. It helps that I would maintain my dishes and I have every intention of making them last longer than I am going to live for (not difficult). This is easy for me to say because when I started off in satellite the only dishes used were big dishes, 1m was the equivalent of today's sly zone 1 mini dish, 1.2m was the sensible minimum, and 1.5m to 1.8m were typical and if I moved to Spain I would have a dish farm anyway.

Of course, I understand that many people do not like their dish as such, its just a thing to get television. And I can understand that some people prefer to try and get away with the smallest dishes they can (dish phobia) just like they might with terrestrial aerials. I find myself posting several times a year that people get stuck in vicious cycles of upgrading and that is why there are so many periodic surges of interest in receiver sensitivity and marginal gains of LNBs and feedhorns as soon as the channels start hopping round the satellites, and a set of them suddenly become marginal, and / or footprints change, and the weakest link in the chain becomes painfully apparent.

Breaking out of this vicious cycle and being happy with their television viewing usually depends on getting enough gain in the first place. In the overall cost of house buying in Spain, buying a big dish or two is a very cheap long term investment.

My arguments are quite detailed but it helps people decide for themselves how much they want to spend, what risk of obsolescence they want to take (I can easily find alternative uses for a spare big dish in my dish farm, other people may not), and the unknowns of how the channels may change in future to be combined on one satellite or spread out over two or three, which broadcasters can do as one of a number of adverse transmission methods that can be taken to enforce marginality on the fringe.

 

[hexah]

The snow thing was for the Western Europe thread. Not so bad this year, but sometimes ...

Yes it was indeed for that thread.

We have had a mild winter over western and most of central Europe with only Romania and Bulgaria having severe blizzards and states of emergency this year, as far as I am aware.

Enjoy it while it lasts as the current weak solar cycle is ending its peak and will hit the bottom in three or four years. The tendency for cold winters in Western Europe at the bottom of the solar cycles are shown to be statistically significant from weather records going back over 300 years.

For Spain I think the solar low means the winter storm track that usually goes over us will go over Portugal and Spain bringing heavy rain and more wind storms.

I woke up under 1 inch of snow on fresh may moring somewhere near Burgos - only once though.

It must have been an interesting experience. Its not what most people think of happening on their Spanish holiday!

There's snow every year within 10 minutes of here. And yesterday it was raining quite heavy.

The weather in Spain is fascinating. I know the central plains around Madrid can get very cold but it is a dry cold unlike here where it is humid or raining and cold and often windy which feels much colder than a calm dry Spanish cold.

The mountains can have highly variable weather with summer thunder storms and torrential rain, and snow in season.

I think the picture postcard views to the snow capped mountains from the coasts of southern Spain look quite romantic. There is some skiing up there, there are international competitions in some places.

 

[FRINGE]

Someone once wrote; If Carlsberg did forum posts.....

But this is definitely a Heineken moment

Many thanks for the excellent post hexah.

 

[hexah]

As you know I write posts in this vein once or twice a year for the benefit of people who just want to watch tv and are not really interested in dx.

But I think that is (accidentally) the longest so far.

A bit like War and Peace or Dogstoyevsky!

 

[Huevos]

in Spain people need to realize a big dish that provides a big margin is whats needed. [...] People must budget for dishes when they buy a house in Spain and they need to have a place in the garden where it (or they) can go. [...] in the Spanish climate I would expect to get at least 50 years out of a Famaval [...] big dishes are cheap in Spain

Have you ever lived in Spain?

 

[hexah]

 

[altman]

just did a SDR scan from 1.5 to 2.1Ghz searching for the beacons.. but found other thing instead: my signal path is utter crap, TPs after 1.7Ghz dive into the noise
the skystar receiver confirms it
all the other cable in the house is brand new 28db/100m premium cable, except the computer drop, where I reused the old tv RG6

had to find something to do for the weekend ;)

 

[bim]

As you know I write posts in this vein once or twice a year for the benefit of people who just want to watch tv and are not really interested in dx.

But I think that is (accidentally) the longest so far.

A bit like War and Peace or Dogstoyevsky!

View attachment 65385

I have to agree with everything you have said being not interested in dx and tv is priority. We had an 80cm dish before the change over so I installed a mtr dish and received all uk tv but sadly lost all on the spot beam. The programmes we get now on pe beam are all 100% quality and signel. We collect our rain water if you want more water you have to increase your surface catchment area; thats the way I see it.

 

[Huevos]

Lovely, a Fascist propaganda tune with some silly English lyrics added.

 

[Camping]

ITV 2, 3 and 4 seem to have dropped signal strength recently. The HD versions are stronger but of course are subscription. Anyone else noticed the drop?