Arabsat BADR-8

[rodscha]

I can confirm


I can confirm that. At least 11996 H is stronger 1-1.3 db then before...

12073H still as absent as always,checked yesternight at 7:30PM

 

[Beli1910]

It will be necessary to make 2 positions of the satellites. Which I will do shortly. With a fine movement, the signal is amplified by a good 2db, but the others are reduced by about the same amount. If I watch mbc channels from different frequencies and rotana channels and iedoros. Mbc transmits with the same power signal, but with a delay of 0.2 degrees, in order for the signal to be good on all of them, it will be necessary to make 2 positions of the satellites.

 

[moonbase]

It will be necessary to make 2 positions of the satellites. Which I will do shortly. With a fine movement, the signal is amplified by a good 2db, but the others are reduced by about the same amount. If I watch mbc channels from different frequencies and rotana channels and iedoros. Mbc transmits with the same power signal, but with a delay of 0.2 degrees, in order for the signal to be good on all of them, it will be necessary to make 2 positions of the satellites.

I made this point in post 323 of this topic and also referred to the 0.2 degrees required.
From a UK location I found some frequencies were subject to a 2.0dB variance of signal level depending on which side of the 0.2 degrees azimuth was being used.

It is all presented in the table I uploaded in reply 323.

 

[Beli1910]

I didn't read all of the last post, I just quickly wrote what I noticed. I apologize for my inattention. It is important that we have some conclusion.

 

[moonbase]

I didn't read all of the last post, I just quickly wrote what I noticed. I apologize for my inattention. It is important that we have some conclusion.

@Beli1910

We both come to the same conclusion, there is a 0.2 degree separation in azimuth required to get the frequencies at maximum signal level.
Some frequencies are maximised and others reduced in signal level if only one azimuth position is used.

It is easy to test, I created a list in a table of which frequencies I found to be impacted. If anyone wishes to test this the frequencies are presented in reply 323.
However, due to different geographic locations, anyone testing this might get different results depending on their location with respect to the beam footprint.

It is possible that some of the frequencies reported to have moved to Badr-8 have not moved.
People were saying a frequency had moved simply due to a variation in signal level, this might not be the case?

Only yesterday people were saying two more frequencies had moved from Badr-4 to Badr-8. This was not proven, it was an assumption.
Respected forum member @william-1 was correct when he said there was no change and the signal levels for these two frequncies were unchanged for him.

 

[ocean04]

he said there was no change and the signal levels for these two frequncies were unchanged for him.

Why there is expectation signal strength is going to change, if you live in coverage area of both satellites?

Here in Finland this change is obvious. In my case signal decreased, luckily not too much.

 

[duck77]

Why there is expectation signal strength is going to change, if you live in coverage area of both satellites?

Here in Finland this change is obvious. In my case signal decreased, luckily not too much.

And I'm also sure in my case ocean04 and I'm right on the limits of the beams in the Azores and the signal has increased so much that I can only pick up from this new satellite the EMENA beam the frequencies 11919 H,11996 H,12073 H,12563 V the others that belong to beam MENA no signal. What I said these frequencies 11996 H,12073 H the signal increased by another 5db which was similar to the signal of the other two frequencies 11919H,12563 V.

 

[duck77]

And I'm also sure in my case ocean04 and I'm right on the limits of the beams in the Azores and the signal has increased so much that I can only pick up from this new satellite the EMENA beam the frequencies 11919 H,11996 H,12073 H,12563 V the others that belong to beam MENA no signal. What I said these frequencies 11996 H,12073 H the signal increased by another 5db which was similar to the signal of the other two frequencies 11919H,12563 V.

And I also forgot about the North-West Africa beam, which is what I get very strong

 

[moonbase]

Why there is expectation signal strength is going to change, if you live in coverage area of both satellites?

Here in Finland this change is obvious. In my case signal decreased, luckily not too much.

Have you tested for the 0.2 degree difference in azimuth for all these frequencies to see if there is decrease/increase?

 

[Satfaca]

People learn this "science" step by step, it took me 25 years to understand certain issues with satellite reception and this was only possible after I've tested tens of dishes, feedhorns, LNBs, cable types, dish movers/motors, satellite replacements ... and another 5 years to accidentally find out how to "squeeze" a weak signal through a 5° skew gap between extra strong transponders of the opposite polarity in order to get permanent reception of the HD channels from ASTRA 2 UK's beam 1000 km away from it.
"Small dish men" inside certain footprint areas cannot experience any major changes (if at all) while reception on the outskirts or complete out of the footprint can see drastic changes in reception.
With a pinpointed large PFA antenna there is absolutely no difference in azimut for any of the frequencies from either BADR 4, 5, 7 or 8, there is however big difference to pinpoint Es'hail 1 or 2.
Why Moonbase's 0.2° moves result in increase/decrease of the signal... it can have several explanation theories but certainly not the azimut/location of the satellites.
Those who have played this game do understand what I am writing about, those who don't or are not willing to understand, those can take this as a challange to "explore further".
Will be glad to assist...

 

[ocean04]

Have you tested for the 0.2 degree difference in azimuth for all these frequencies to see if there is decrease/increase?

Yes I tested earlier, there is no noticeable difference here. Only for Eshail2

One other observation, 12456H Badr6 was receivable here 3m, but nothing after it was switched to Badr8. In southeast Finland it's reported 6-7db with only 1.8m

 

[moonbase]

Yes I tested earlier, there is no noticeable difference here. Only for Eshail2

It seems as I said earlier, the 0.2 degree azimuth vs signal level looks to be dependent on the geographic location of the dish with respect to the footprint beam as @Beli1910 observes this 0.2 degree impact in Slovenia, you do not observe it in Finland.

The Badr-8 satellite seems to be outputting huge signal levels on frequencies that are reported as being on the MENA beam?
From the UK using a 2.0m PF dish I am approximately 2000 km outside of the northern edge of the MENA beam and get some reasonable signal levels.
There seems to be a lot of signal overspill beyond the official footprint map?

Perhaps some of these frequencies assumed to be on the MENA beam are actually on the EMENA beam which has coverage of the UK?

 

[Fisty McB]

Currently installing some LNBs on a newly perched Wavefrontier T90 (centred on 16E, will be for another thread/post down the line), decided to try an old-school Inverto Black-Ultra single around 26E on the rail and the Mauritanian transponder mentioned in the Telecom Band was coming in quite well with by far the strongest quality signal (72% on a Freesat V8 Finder), the next strongest being the Qatar transponder on Badr 4 with 55-57% and others on the BSS band like Dubai One on 12130 V barely getting above the threshold to watch an error free picture (around 37-38%), with nothing else received on the Telecom band otherwise. Granted the Mauritanian mux doesn't appear to suffer from nearby interference from both Astra slots on 28E & 23.5E (though Flysat suggests a narrow data carrier on the same frequency on 28E), but if this is to be expected from the rest of the Badr 4 signals to be transferred over then it looks quite promising as to reception where I am.

However, I did notice in that peaking the 12563 V signal from Badr 8 seemed to suggest that it is parked slightly west of Badr 4 satellite, maybe about 0.5 degree west of it. Anyone notice anything similar?

I did mention a while back that Badr 8 appeared to be "located" a little bit west of Badr 4 when peaking the LNB along the rail of my Wavefrontier T90. 0.5 degrees might be an exaggeration, 0.2-0.3 degrees might fit better. Haven't had time recently to double check for any other transponders that have actually moved to Badr 8 that should (now?) be receivable at my location. Hopefully everything gets transferred over to Badr 8 sooner rater than later.

 

[moonbase]

I did mention a while back that Badr 8 appeared to be "located" a little bit west of Badr 4 when peaking the LNB along the rail of my Wavefrontier T90. 0.5 degrees might be an exaggeration, 0.2-0.3 degrees might fit better. Haven't had time recently to double check for any other transponders that have actually moved to Badr 8 that should (now?) be receivable at my location. Hopefully everything gets transferred over to Badr 8 sooner rater than later.

Thank you for confirming this point, you are the third forum member to find that there is an approximate 0.2 degrees variance of azimuth in action here.
Perhaps some frequencies that have been assumed to be on Badr-8 are not actually on Badr-8 ?

 

[ocean04]

Thank you for confirming this point, you are the third forum member to find that there is an approximate 0.2 degrees variance of azimuth in action here.
Perhaps some frequencies that have been assumed to be on Badr-8 are not actually on Badr-8 ?

This was already explained by danny in post #326
It's caused by interference coming from other strong frequencies from 23.5E or 28.2E

I see no point arguing which satellite or beam everything is, but I believe for 26E lyngsat is currently accurate (7.12 morning). Only exception 11472V, not sure where that's coming from

 

[rodscha]

same here,26E comes in 2 groups,I need to tweak my pointing to move from 1 group to the other,has always beenlike this.
2 lines for26E, 0.3°-ish apart
It seems one group goes with Es-Hail(25.8E) & the other with Arabsat (26E)

 

[moonbase]

This was already explained by danny in post #326
It's caused by interference coming from other strong frequencies from 23.5E or 28.2E

I see no point arguing which satellite or beam everything is, but I believe for 26E lyngsat is currently accurate (7.12 morning). Only exception 11472V, not sure where that's coming from

No, I do not agree with the assumption that it is direct frequency interference coming from 23.5E or 28.2E.

I am using a 2.0m PF dish with Ku beamwidth of 0.93 degrees.
I would not expect this size of dish and beamwidth to be subject to direct interference from a satellite more than 2 degrees away.

The logical explanation is that some of the frequencies assumed to be on Badr-8 are not on Badr-8.
Is it relevant, for reception purposes no, for documented accuracy of which satellite is transmitting the signal, yes.

 

[Satfaca]

same here,26E comes in 2 groups,I need to tweak my pointing to move from 1 group to the other,has always beenlike this.
2 lines for26E, 0.3°-ish apart
It seems one group goes with Es-Hail(25.8E) & the other with Arabsat (26E)

Quite logical, ain't it?
Even 0.1° makes huge difference with big PFA dishes. For instance I need to idividually adjust Amos 3 & Amos 7 in order to get reception (of the ME transponders).

 

[Fisty McB]

This was already explained by danny in post #326
It's caused by interference coming from other strong frequencies from 23.5E or 28.2E

When I first witnessed the discrepancy I had with the Mauritanian transponder on 12563 V being peaked better with the LNB on the T90 rail slightly west of the Badr 4 signals, I thought that interference from the Astra 2 & 3 satellites might have been responsible.

However, taking three transponders on Badr 4 (that are AFAIK still broadcasting on Badr 4 at the time of this post) in the case of the following...

12130 V (Dubai Media Transponder)
12169 V (Qatar transponder)
12226 H (Bahrain transponder)

...the Astra 2 satellites at 28.2E have UK spot beam transmissions on the same three frequencies & polarities, and come in very strong at my location. Meanwhile there is a transmission on Astra 3B at 23.5E on 12130 V but none on or around 12169 V or 12226 H - the 12130 V transmission at 23.5E still strong enough to be a nuisance.

On the other hand, there are no regular transmissions on either 23.5E or 28.2E that should cause local interference issues where I am receiving the 12563 V Mauritanian transponder, and it indeed it comes in quite well - Flysat suggests that there is a low symbol rate data transponder on this frequency at 28.2E, but this doesn't seem to cause issues for me receiving Badr 8 on this frequency.

When peaking the LNB on the rail for the three transponders mentioned above on Badr 4, all three had a common peak spot slightly east to where the LNB was peaked on the Mauritanian transponder on 12563 V on Badr 8 - the Dubai transponder had the lowest signal-to-noise ratio, presumably because it's dealing with interference from both sides, while the Qatar & Bahrain transponders are only dealing with interference from one side (at 28.2E).

Now, if both Badr 4 & Badr 8 were to be co-located to <0.1 degree, I would expect that the three Badr 4 transponders I mentioned above would peak better slightly more west than the Mauritanian transponder given the lack of nearby interference to the latter - but the opposite is taking place! At least for me.

From my experience above, I can only conclude that at present the Badr 8 satellite is currently sited slightly west to all the other Arabsat satellites present at 26E, for what reason I'm not sure.

In the core reception area of the satellites this is unlikely to be noticed (unless some very large dishes are being used that give a very narrow aperture to show this up) but is likely to be more apparent in fringe areas where bigger dishes have to be used and where alignment is more critical - it is similar to issues some people have mention on this forum in the past trying to receive UK beam transmissions in part of continental Europe with large dishes whereby Astra 2F & 2G are located at 28.2E but Astra 2E is located at 28.5E - my understanding with that is that Astra 2E has a Middle Eastern beam that uses the same frequency bands as the Es'hail 1 satellite at 25.5E, and that both operators need to ensure that the two satellites are kept a minimum of 3 degrees apart to reduce interference fro each other. Of course, in the UK & Ireland this 0.3 degree gap between the Astra 2 satellites isn't noticeable with the small (65cm or less) dishes in use here for reception from 28E.

 

[danny10]

In this moment

Badr 4 ..... 26,105 E
Badr 8 .... 25,984 E