My first toroidal 90 multi dish install with 20 lnbs

[godzillafan]

Like I've said all the way through, get an original holder and find out if your central LNB is correctly positioned. This is before adding any other LNB to the bar. Right now your central lnb is a centimeter too low, i.e. well below the focal point. Did you read the assembly instructions I posted? Did you use an angle gauge as it shows? If you don't get the LNB at the focal point you are wasting your time doing anything else.

As a kid did you ever experiment at burning things using a magnifying glass to focus the sun's rays. Not much chance of success if you moved the magnifying glass just a few millimeters from the focal point, let alone centimeters.

Also it's plainly obvious (to me at least) that something is very wrong if the Vu+ SNR is any less than 99% on ZDF HD.

Thanks H

Dont going back up there for get the central 0 correct - I will recheck the 0 and get that cm back.

I thought 98% was good compared to what I have had before but 99% is better.

I am still waiting for the holders and my uncle to send them, he still got my original 5, but no update on dates on them as he is in London and he cant even remember where he put them typical.

Once I get the ZDF HD to 99% would all the other channels be 99% or is just ZDF HD at 99% is the benchmark?

 

[sonnetpete]

Like I've said all the way through, get an original holder and find out if your central LNB is correctly positioned. This is before adding any other LNB to the bar. Right now your central lnb is a centimeter too low, i.e. well below the focal point. Did you read the assembly instructions I posted? Did you use an angle gauge as it shows? If you don't get the LNB at the focal point you are wasting your time doing anything else.

Agreed, the LNB does look a little low and it maybe worth Godzillafan experimenting by raising it up a bit.

Also it's plainly obvious (to me at least) that something is very wrong if the Vu+ SNR is any less than 99% on ZDF HD.

Seriously? There's something very wrong because his SNR is 1% below maximum? OK, he will have problems with the outer satellites if the dish set up isn't exact but I don't see how you can quibble about 1%. I don't want to argue with you about it, but personally I'd accept it as is, unless you think moving the LNB will really achieve an increase. I just worry that trying to do that will result in errors to other parts of the set up.

 

[godzillafan]

Cheers S

1% could make a difference, but I wont know until I try the other lnbs.

But tomorrow after the day trip I will report back the findings of moving the central lnb up a mm at a time on the holder.

Just need to dust of the binatone 950s walkie talkies and get the wee man in the front room for a couple of mins to see if there is any snr changes.

If there is no change with the SNR by moving the lnb up and down on the holder does that mean the dish is in the wrong place?

 

[Huevos]

What you have to do is push the LNB up a centimeter or so like my picture and then reset the azimuth and elevation. And by the way the difference between 98% and 99% is very important. 98% means the meter is still able to measure, whereas at 99% it is not. That means you could have 2 signals, 1 dramatically better than the other, but the meter is incapable of telling them apart. For that reason you need to find a transponder that is a bit weaker to use for adjusting.

It's like being in the car and the speedometer can measure up to 100mph but if you go faster the needle doesn't move any further. If you go 110mph or 150mph the speedo still reads 100mph even though the real speed difference is dramatic.

 

[sonnetpete]

Ok, I can now see what Huevos is trying to explain. The penny didn't drop because I've always gone for a weaker TP to align with. I'd suggest you try with Eurosport's transponder as there's some room for improvement. Just be careful not to tinker too much, you may make things worse and lose what you've gained.

 

[godzillafan]

What you have to do is push the LNB up a centimeter or so like my picture and then reset the azimuth and elevation. And by the way the difference between 98% and 99% is very important. 98% means the meter is still able to measure, whereas at 99% it is not. That means you could have 2 signals, 1 dramatically better than the other, but the meter is incapable of telling them apart. For that reason you need to find a transponder that is a bit weaker to use for adjusting.

It's like being in the car and the speedometer can measure up to 100mph but if you go faster the needle doesn't move any further. If you go 110mph or 150mph the speedo still reads 100mph even though the real speed difference is dramatic.

Ok, I can now see what Huevos is trying to explain. The penny didn't drop because I've always gone for a weaker TP to align with. I'd suggest you try with Eurosport's transponder as there's some room for improvement. Just be careful not to tinker too much, you may make things worse and lose what you've gained.

Thanks guys - its reducing that margin of error - that I can do and will be doing that later this afternoon.

Off to feed the ducks with the family this morning (promised the wife I will - in return for a few hours with the dish in the afternoon).

I guess with the lnb moved a cm up the E and A will only be very slight movements.

Thanks for letting me know which transponder to tackle hopefully I can either improve that or get 99% with ZDF HD.

Reports to follow later in the day.

 

[godzillafan]

1.10pm update

Hi guys

I went up the ladder again and moved the lnb by 1cms and this is what happened.

I used the S9HD first to spot slight changes in signal and noticed a 1% increase on a couple of transponder, this was after moving the lnb 1 cm and moving the dish back and forth and up and down as discussed.

Once I was happy with the increases I tuned in the Vu+ and these are the results

Yesterday it was

Anixe SD 88%
Anixe HD 92%
ZDF SD 93%
ZDF HD 98%
ARTE SD 91%
ARTE HD 98%
Eurosport Deutschland 92%
Sixx 90%

today after the lnb change its



ZDF HD 99%
ARTE HD 99%
Eurosport Deutschland 95% (went to 96% to a a few seconds but stable at 95%)

The rest I did not check as I wanted to stick to ZDF HD - was determined to get 99%.

Eurosport which was the weaker transponder yesterday and only had 92% jumped to 95% and the other two up to 99%.

H & S - can you confirm you are happy with the figures before I do anything else.

I am still out there for another hour and going to tigten the bolts.

The next steps was the outer lnbs should I start with 42 or 45E or 0.8W or 5W

Some photos of the lnb new position and the 99% on the TV (I know its a photo but working on the computer side later).

 

[sonnetpete]

Well, I'd be happy with those figures, however it may be better to let Huevos to give your post the onceover as well.

As to 42°E or 5°W, I don't think there's much to choose between them, maybe 5°W is slightly stronger. Are you not wanting to get 28°E back on the bar? It would avoid a possible plant pot plunge and consequently a Cartoon Channel crisis.

 

[godzillafan]

Well, I'd be happy with those figures, however it may be better to let Huevos to give your post the onceover as well.

As to 42°E or 5°W, I don't think there's much to choose between them, maybe 5°W is slightly stronger. Are you not wanting to get 28°E back on the bar? It would avoid a possible plant pot plunge and consequently a Cartoon Channel crisis.

Thanks S

Waiting for H's approval, thought about the 28 first, but the weather temps have dropped about 10degrees since yesterday, so family are indoors making cakes (can't wait). I have a few days grace for 28. So that's why I am thinking to give a outer lnb a bash.

I had a quick look at 13 (oddly had a lnb sitting there) and got that in a couple of mins with 70%s snr on the S9HD so thats about the 85% snr on the vu+ (thats the rough snr difference bewteen the two boxes).

But would like to give the outer lnb a bash and never tried anything that far along the bar!

17.36 update

put some lnbs on the bar to check what kind of results I was getting - just there as a guide all bewteen 70% snrs on the S9HD

28,26,23.5,19,16,13,9,7. 10 was too tight got no signal - there were just put on as a guide. Freezing outside now going to nail the outer lnbs tomorrow and then fine tune

 

[Huevos]

Try Anixe HD DVB-S2, 10773, H, 22000, 3/4, 8PSK. I get 94% SNR from that.

 

[Huevos]

would like to give the outer lnb a bash and never tried anything that far along the bar!

My current range is 26E to 7W which is 33º of arc (or 17º each side of centre). Outside this range it tapers off pretty rapidly. 42E to 5W is 47º of arc so even if you do manage it I'm sure some of the transponders will be missing.

 

[RimaNTSS]

I was making graph another day, it shows how T90 performs (vertical axe) depending on LNBs location on rail (horizontal axe). For example, if LNB is on rail mark 24 than it is performing as 55 cm antenna. Of course this is very approximate.

 

[godzillafan]

Try Anixe HD DVB-S2, 10773, H, 22000, 3/4, 8PSK. I get 94% SNR from that.

Anixe HD went down to 88% from 92, whereas as the others I was looking for went up to 99%. I guess, is that whats going to happen to the transponders - they will go up and down like yoyos and there is no way to get 99% on all of them?

My current range is 26E to 7W which is 33º of arc (or 17º each side of centre). Outside this range it tapers off pretty rapidly. 42E to 5W is 47º of arc so even if you do manage it I'm sure some of the transponders will be missing.

Sorry I quoted some mixed lnbs - As the new bar was longer 1.5m than the original 1m bar I changed.

I was looking at 42e to 0.8W to set up mainly as the outside lnbs

and the extra extension was going to allow 45E and 5W.

From a quick placement job yesterday - I added 28,26,23,16,13,9 and 7 onto the numbers onto the bar where should be placed (well 'should' be, but are not, but within a few mms of the bar numbers eg 16 on bar number 3). As I added each one I just checked them on the S9HD and I got a signal on each one.

I was putting them on so I can see what space I have to work with on each one as they will all be tweaked and fine tuned later.

Today I was going to work on 42e and 0.8W - with the 19E ZDF HD at 99% - realistically what kind of figures on snr are achieveable.

R's done a nice graph again and S mentioned some will be strong signal and some wont be.

I am reading this as the outer lnbs in general will have a lower snr and I dont spent hours trying to achieve 99% on them as its not possible.

Can you all confirm your rough figures for 42E and 0.8W if you use them.

I need a guide today, so I dont waste too much time trying to achieve impossible figures.

Cheers again

9.15 update

I have about 3 hours today to add 42e and 0.8W
and then put 39, 36, 4.8W into position

 

[sonnetpete]

Anixe HD went down to 88% from 92, whereas as the others I was looking for went up to 99%. I guess, is that whats going to happen to the transponders - they will go up and down like yoyos and there is no way to get 99% on all of them?

It's true that not all transponders will be of the same strength, but I don't think Anixe HD should have dropped that much. If you have five minutes and before starting on any other LNB's, check that transponder again and try to peak it in the way you did with ZDF HD. When you've reached the max with Anixe, check back on ZDF HD and see if it's dropped. I think Huevos only mentioned that transponder as an example, it's not a benchmark. BTW, don't expect any meaningful figures from me on 19°E. I was puzzled that it was quite low and checked 19°E on the motorised dish where it's reception was equally poor. I guess I'm suffering with tree growth blocking line of sight.

Can you all confirm your rough figures for 42E and 0.8W if you use them.

I need a guide today, so I dont waste too much time trying to achieve impossible figures.

Cheers again

42°E is at one end of the bar for me on the TD88. I've also been tweaking as I'd lost that sat altogether, so it's a bit 'off' at present. However, on Bursa ASTV it's reading 41%SNR. That TP is 11958V, 27,500SR, DVB-S. I've got 0.8°W on the 1M Gibertini (though a bit off centre). The favourite TP to align with is 11862H, 28,000SR, DVB-S and FEC 7/8. On BBC World News I get 95% SNR. I'd wait a while to see if Huevos comes up with figures as a comparison. Don't stress too much if you can't replicate those figures, as Rima pointed out, performance will drop off at the extreme ends of the bar.

 

[godzillafan]

Thanks S

Like you said, I dont want to waste too much time. If I am not going to achieve great snrs on the end lnbs.

As long as the main lnbs from 28, 26,23,19,13,10/9,7, 4.8,0.8W remain in strong snr's I will be happy.

The other 36-45E and 0.8W towards 12.5W (whatever extra is a huge bonus). As the dish is there to get as many lnbs as possible (16) to full the emp 16/1. My original goal was more, but I am only looking at 14-16 tops!

Aslong as they go up - the tweaking is going to take a while. I guess they take months to tweak to 'your' perfect levels.

I will check the 19E again, just worried I dont mess it up after getting 99% on ZDF HD and Arte HD

 

[sonnetpete]

I will check the 19E again, just worried I dont mess it up after getting 99% on ZDF HD and Arte HD

I know what you mean, I've often tried to improve a signal and ended up making it worse. Perhaps my motto should be "If it ain't broke fix it till it is". I think the worst thing you can do is move multiple things at the same time. I.E. LNB direction, skew, azimuth, elevation. You end up losing yourself completely sometimes. I don't think I have 'perfect' levels BTW, though I believe it's an ongoing process of fine adjustments until you accept what you've achieved as the best compromise.

 

[godzillafan]

Thanks S

I getting that feeliong now - I better quit while I am ahead with 19 and try the others.

This is what I have positioned so far, but not spent those tweaking times on them as I should.

42, 39, 28, 23.5, 19, 16,13,9,7,4.8,0.8, 5w

36 I am still working on and 5w is weak.

Like I said I have put them where they would be on my bar - I just need to go through all of them and select the best tweak for each.

I next issue is the emp 16/1 and what lnb to stick into what slot and then work out the best way to mutli tune a vu+.

getting the manuals out for them all

 

[sonnetpete]

Thanks S

I getting that feeliong now - I better quit while I am ahead with 19 and try the others.

This is what I have positioned so far, but not spent those tweaking times on them as I should.

42, 39, 28, 23.5, 19, 16,13,9,7,4.8,0.8, 5w

36 I am still working on and 5w is weak.

Like I said I have put them where they would be on my bar - I just need to go through all of them and select the best tweak for each.

I next issue is the emp 16/1 and what lnb to stick into what slot and then work out the best way to mutli tune a vu+.

getting the manuals out for them all

One of the problems with 36°E is the low symbol rates on some transponders. You have to wait for your receiver to 'catch up' with the transmissions. If I get a chance, I'll see which is the best TP for me on there. 5°W is a strong sat but I know it's on the end of the bar for you. You will find the LNB may need 'pointing' more than you think towards the subreflector. Huevos posted instructions about setting up the VU+ on this thread : http://www.satellites.co.uk/forums/...stems/191385-monoblocks-multi-sat-dish-5.html . It's at #89. You may find it helps but I went into 4 x 4/1 switches then into a Spaun 4/1.

 

[sonnetpete]

Re : 36°E. Try 12507 H, S/R 22790. AzTV is on there and showing 59% SNR for me well off centre using the TD88.

 

[godzillafan]

One of the problems with 36°E is the low symbol rates on some transponders. You have to wait for your receiver to 'catch up' with the transmissions. If I get a chance, I'll see which is the best TP for me on there. 5°W is a strong sat but I know it's on the end of the bar for you. You will find the LNB may need 'pointing' more than you think towards the subreflector. Huevos posted instructions about setting up the VU+ on this thread : http://www.satellites.co.uk/forums/...stems/191385-monoblocks-multi-sat-dish-5.html . It's at #89. You may find it helps but I went into 4 x 4/1 switches then into a Spaun 4/1.

Great stuff - i will have a read of that thread - I knew there was something on it somewhere. That going to be another interesting topic. At the moment as I have only used the Vu+ for one lnbs at a time and never used any of the menus to tune for a multisat setup. The manual is ok but not the best. The threads will have all the answers.

Re : 36°E. Try 12507 H, S/R 22790. AzTV is on there and showing 59% SNR for me well off centre using the TD88.

The 36 I am having another go tomorrow or the day after. I have put on 42 and 39 and because I already have 28 up, 36 should not take long. I will take my take my time with that one.

I was surprised at 5W it came on almost straight away but I need to tweak that a bit as I caould on tune a small number with the S9.

So this is what is up

42,39,28,26,23.5,19,16,13,9,7,4.8,0.8 and 5W

36 will be up this week and 10 was a issue for me as I only have smart tit'n golds. I need to get smoe alps for 10/9 or some other thin/silm lnbs.