New NS2000 (NS3 / NS4) thread

[satesco]

I think 12539H is an NS4 Olympics feed?
A scan with IQmonitor and an S2X card might reveal something?

I don't know what to answer because I couldn't find the parameters with either card.
But I doubt that Novelsat uses 12539 H.
I hope I'm wrong, but I have no way to verify that.

ps_added:
I tried with neumoDVB to find out what parameters the 12539 H has with the 6909x card. Something is probably on this mux.
Those who have other devices might want to try.


A/S EDIT - this & the next few posts refer to the 12539H frequency on 13E - Ive moved them off the Vivacom thread

 

[moonbase]

Finally we found that! The modulation is NS4 and the exact symbol rate is 23530. Probably a step of 50 in the SR research is too high.
Please note that the exact transponder frequency seems 12648V to me, but I can't be sure about the LO value in my LNB, although it is a PLL one by SMW, so a good quality product.

What FEC and APSK values are you getting when the frequency of 12649V from 7.0E is locked?
For example, is it 16APSK or 32APSK?

I am not locking it on a small dish so may need to use a larger dish, currently showing as 12.8dB on a Promax spectrum analyser so I might need more dB to lock it?

 

[moonbase]

I don't know what to answer because I couldn't find the parameters with either card.
But I doubt that Novelsat uses 12539 H.
I hope I'm wrong, but I have no way to verify that.

ps_added:
I tried with neumoDVB to find out what parameters the 12539 H has with the 6909x card. Something is probably on this mux.
Those who have other devices might want to try.

@satesco

Thank you for checking 12539H with your setup.

If you look at the shape of the spectrum peak for 12539H you can see it has a smaller roll off compared to the other frequencies in your spectrum.
This looks like either NS3/NS4 or S2X or a data feed, also the SR of 35050 is close to what would be expected for NS3/NS4.

 

[7mdish]

What FEC and APSK values are you getting when the frequency of 12649V from 7.0E is locked?
For example, is it 16APSK or 32APSK?

I am not locking it on a small dish so may need to use a larger dish, currently showing as 12.8dB on a Promax spectrum analyser so I might need more dB to lock it?

No I don't think so. The SNR here is very similar like yours (12.9-13.0 dB at my 2.4m dish, near Milan) with a link margin of around 4.2 dB.
The signal is NS4/16APSK modulated but with FEC of 2/3, so the threshold would be around 9 dB or less.
If you have almost 13 dB you must be able to lock.
As I mentioned earlier the exact symbol rate is 23530.
I checked the "lock range". I lock between 23524 and 23535, so a failry large range.
Try again, I believe you can lock like me.
Unfortunately both Olympic transponders are DRM protected. Bad luck.

 

[moonbase]

Update:

I confirm that the frequency of 12539H on 13.0E is in NS4.
Screenshot attached below:

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[moonbase]

No I don't think so. The SNR here is very similar like yours (12.9-13.0 dB at my 2.4m dish, near Milan) with a link margin of around 4.2 dB.
The signal is NS4/16APSK modulated but with FEC of 2/3, so the threshold would be around 9 dB or less.
If you have almost 13 dB you must be able to lock.
As I mentioned earlier the exact symbol rate is 23530.
I checked the "lock range". I lock between 23524 and 23535, so a failry large range.
Try again, I believe you can lock like me.
Unfortunately both Olympic transponders are DRM protected. Bad luck.

Thank you for your reply with the frequency parameters, I will get back and check it again soon.

 

[moonbase]

The frequency of 12539H from Hot Bird at 13.0E is an NS4 frequency, probably another one of the Olympics NS4 feeds.
Screenshot attached below showing the frequency synced and locked in NS4 with SR details in the screenshot.

.

 

[satesco]

It must be said that the symbol rate found by neumoDVVB on 12539 H in the auto search is estimated, which means we can't be sure it is correct.
To ensure that, it has to be corroborated with what other dvb applications find. Unfortunately, despite the performance of the Crazyscan, EBSpro, IQmonitor, etc, they cannot detect parameters other than those of standard cards, let alone those with S2X extension.
I tried with IQmonitor, but the 6909x card didn't detect anything. And I was expecting that because the Ukrainian developer didn't have a card with demod sti135 on hand to be performant for such a device.
You can see a signal with the 6983 card, but despite the constellation obtained by the card, I don't think we have a valid stream.

A small remark about the Novelsat device that is being discussed here.
We all want to have it, but because it is dedicated only to TV program operators, it has not implemented one essential thing for dxers: blindscan. Without it, it seems like a performance machine that only goes on the roads traced by the manufacturer. The dynamics of satellite transmissions require the flexibility of the devices used and the software capable of adapting to changes on the fly.
Or to give thousands of euros to follow a route dictated by the manufacturer seems too much. Of course, this comes from someone who says grapes are sour grapes.
We can also take comfort in the fact that, although our cards do not give us access to other types of transmissions, we can at least explore the satellite signal at any time and find new frequencies and parameters.
It is eloquent in this sense, even in this example at 12539 H, as I/we have also encountered on other occasions on other satellites.
But about these things, we can talk endlessly about the pros and cons.

added ps:
While I was writing the above, you found something with NS4 on this frequency.
I'm glad about that, but you didn't post the symbol rate used on 12539 H. Sorry, now I see it's there!
I want to ask if the one found by neumoDVB and posted by me earlier helped you.

 

[moonbase]

I want to ask if the one found by neumoDVB and posted by me earlier helped you.

@satesco

Yes it confirmed my thoughts about the SR. For the bandwdth of the frequency there are two SR's often used with NS3/NS4 which are 34285 or 35294.
Your spectrum scan indicated it was probably the 35294 SR which turned out to be accurate.

 

[satesco]

Thanks, @moonbase, for your answer. I wasn't sure if that symbol rate was valid; more, no. It's good that it finally matched.
And if you still lock the signal with your device, what type of transmission was/is it, feed or regular program?
What did you find? I assume other users are curious to know if it's been unknown.

 

[moonbase]

Thanks, @moonbase, for your answer. I wasn't sure if that symbol rate was valid; more, no. It's good that it finally matched.
And if you still lock the signal with your device, what type of transmission was/is it, feed or regular program?
What did you find? I assume other users are curious to know if it's been unknown.

It is reported to be a Paris Olympics feed in NS4.

 

[moonbase]

An NS4 symbol rate step analysis table is attached below.

The table shows there is a 17 KSPS tolerance for an NS4 transmission when the SR is the commonly used value of 35294 KSPS.
The KSPS tolerance for smaller or larger symbol rates might be different, they would need to be analysed.

.

 

[7mdish]

The table shows there is a 17 KSPS tolerance for an NS4 transmission when the SR is the commonly used value of 35294 KSPS.
The KSPS tolerance for smaller or larger symbol rates might be different, they would need to be analysed.
I think so. Higher the SR value, larger the tolerance.

I believe that it is, more or less, around 0.05% of the exact value.
You found 17 on 35294, I found 11 on 23530, very similar.
But it must be analysed on the lowest values too.
Another topic: it could be interesting to know what is the minimum SR values lockable by the Novelsat tuners? Maybe under 1000?
I had no chance to test this, hoping in the future.

 

[moonbase]

Another NS4 symbol rate step analysis table is attached below.

The table shows there is a 11 KSPS tolerance for an NS4 transmission when the SR is 23530 KSPS.
The tolerance in percentage terms is approximately 0.05% which is similar for the higher SR step analysis table I uploaded earlier.

.

 

[satesco]

It is reported to be a Paris Olympics feed in NS4.

It may well be that on Hotbird 11603 H(sr 35000) is an NS4 feed the same as at 12539 H, probably with the same symbol rate(35294?).
Please try to check it, and if, as I assume, you manage to lock it, please give us pictures as long as they're not encoded.
Thanks.

 

[moonbase]

It may well be that on Hotbird 11603 H(sr 35000) is an NS4 feed the same as at 12539 H, probably with the same symbol rate(35294?).
Please try to check it, and if, as I assume, you manage to lock it, please give us pictures as long as they're not encoded.
Thanks.

@satesco

I will flash up the equipment and have a sniff, back later......

 

[moonbase]

@satesco

You are correct, the feed highlighted in your spectrum is an NS4 feed.
I am locking it with frequency of 11604.70 H and SR of 35290. These values are what give the minimum ppm offset estimated by the Novelsat unit.

The LNB on the dish is a DRO LNB, the frequency accuracy should be better with a PLL LNB but its close enough with my LNB to get the NS4 feed to Sync and Lock.

Screen capture of the demodulator line monitor is attached below.

.

 

[satesco]

Thanks for satisfying my curiosity.
I would ask too much to give us, for the same reason, if possible/allowed, and what the stream contains(picture).

 

[moonbase]

Thanks for satisfying my curiosity.
I would ask too much to give us, for the same reason, if possible/allowed, and what the stream contains(picture).

@satesco

The stream cannot be read correctly by my equipment. I think it might be an Olympic Games feed with a custom DRM, they used a custom DRM for the last Olympic Games in 2021.
A screenshot of the stream is attached below, it looks to be a 9 channel mux but I would not be sure that all 9 PID's indicated as video are actually video. The DRM might be sending false information to the stream analyser.

One thing is certain, it is NS4 and protected by a DRM, after that, who knows......

.

 

[satesco]

@satesco

The stream cannot be read correctly by my equipment. I think it might be an Olympic Games feed with a custom DRM, they used a custom DRM for the last Olympic Games in 2021.
A screenshot of the stream is attached below, it looks to be a 9 channel mux but I would not be sure that all 9 PID's indicated as video are actually video. The DRM might be sending false information to the stream analyser.

One thing is certain, it is NS4 and protected by a DRM, after that, who knows......

.
View attachment 157005

My thanks for the screenshot and explanation. They are enough for me.