Advice Needed missing frequencies 30W

[a33]

You write you are in Essex, and elevation should be 22 degrees?

Dishpointer gives 22 degrees for Newcastle or Edinborough; 24 for Essex.

So the leaning forward of 4 degrees does worry me a bit...

greetz,
A33

 

[brother9]

You write you are in Essex, and elevation should be 22 degrees?

Dishpointer gives 22 degrees for Newcastle or Edinborough; 24 for Essex.

So the leaning forward of 4 degrees does worry me a bit...

greetz,
A33

 

[brother9]

No, no, no! On the left of my comments you can find my location: Netherlands. Someone in Essex (see previous pages) had a signal on 11491, 11496, albeit weak. Dishpointer gives elevation 22.5° and offset of dish = 26°, ergo dish leans forward by 3.5°. Anyway, I just checked all Hispasat freq. qualities and ALL were now 99% (=maximum), except 11503 at 76%. Later it was down to 66%. Apart from rain (scatter) do clouds also affect some signals?

 

[Tururu]

Many receivers are limited to SR2000. the BOM channel has SR1667 and not everyone can tune it, in general a lower SR, ask for more antenna.
If you change the receiver, you will not have problems with the TP's you want to tune in and these others either.
Already, the subject of the antenna is the least.

Muchos receptores tienen como limite SR2000, el canal BOM tiene SR1667 y no todos lo pueden sintonizar, en general un SR mas bajo, pide mas antena.
Si cambia el receptor, no tendra problemas con los TP's que quiere sintonizar y estos otros tampoco.
Ya puestos, el tema de la antena es lo de menos.

11491V7522.- Octagon SF4008/Octagon SX88 and TBS..... OK.
11497H7884.- Octagon SF4008/Octagon SX88 and TBS.... OK.

Estado de la antena/Antenna status.

 

[RimaNTSS]

Any comments?

As it has said be before it is important to which point o n the surface of the dish LNB is pointed. Not less important from where LNB is aimed to the dish. What I personally missing in your posts are self-explaining pictures. But that could me only my problem.
Do you know exactly how many mm should be from the top and bottom points of the working area of the dish to it's focal point?
Can you measure exactly (with the precision up to 0.1*) what is the leaning of the face of the dish when it is tuned to chosen satellite?
It is almost impossible to get maximum of antenna-system without precise calculations and measurements. That is IMHO.
If your main receiver in the room is on Enigma2 than it is net necessary to bring it to the roof, just connect your laptop or android phone to your WiFi and read signal levels. I like SignalMeter (screenshot attached) which not only allows to see what signal is but also tells by voice. It is also possible to change channels from the PC.

 

[Mickha]

Don't forget to slide the LNB, if it will move, in the collar, to get the correct focal point.
Did you check that the Triax dish wasn't damaged, warped, in transit?
If you check the Europe satellite beam, for 30W, you shouldn't have any problems, even with a smaller dish.

http://www.hispasat.com/en/satellite-fleet/coverage-map

 

[Lazarus]

@brother9



Those two tricky TPs are close (maybe not quite close enough?) to the firing line for potential DECT phone interference at around 1.8GHz in L Band.

11497-9570=1746

This probably isn't the answer, but it only takes two shakes to eliminate.

 

[Tururu]

@brother9


Those two tricky TPs are close (maybe not quite close enough?) to the firing line for potential DECT phone interference at around 1.8GHz in L Band.
11497-9570=1746
This probably isn't the answer, but it only takes two shakes to eliminate.

.
There are problems of interference with mobile, DECT phones, simply our normal receivers do not understand the emissions of these 2 TP's.
The BER (level of errors) is triggered in the Dreambox800 to the maximum, some photos.

These 2 TP's without the proper receiver (already commented), can not tune them, they do not give signal, I see them perfectly in the spectrum analyzer with very good levels, but as I indicated, in a normal receiver, they have no signal, that you see, similar to the tp's in DVB-S2X, that's the way it is, you do not have to go wrong, it does not matter how many miracles you can perform with the antenna and see that you need many miracles.
You can not tune in.

11491V7522.- Octagon SF4008/Octagon SX88 and TBS..... OK.
11497H7884.- Octagon SF4008/Octagon SX88 and TBS.... OK.

Hispasat with 50cm, even less, does not have problems with commercial channels, the feed is another song needing more antenna.
Right now Hispasat has about 730 channels with links to sporting events and other acts broadcasting (those tuned into a normal receiver with blind search), not counting below SR1500, limit of equipment used.
---------
No son problemas de interferencias con moviles, telefonos DECT, simplemente nuestros receptores normales no entienden las emisiones de estos 2 TP's.
El BER (nivel de errores) se dispara en la Dreambox800 al maximo, unas fotos.

Esos 2 TP's sin el receptor adecuado (ya comentado), no los puede sintonizar, no dan señal, los veo perfectamente en el analizador de espectro con muy buenos niveles, pero como indico, en un receptor normal, no tienen señal, no entiende lo que ve, similar a las tp's en DVB-S2X, es asi, no hay que dar mal vueltas, da igual los milagros que pueda realizar con la antena y mira que necesitas muchos milagros.
No los puede sintonizar.

11491V7522.- Octagon SF4008/Octagon SX88 and TBS..... OK.
11497H7884.- Octagon SF4008/Octagon SX88 and TBS.... OK.

Hispasat con 50cm, incluso menos, no tiene problemas con canales comerciales, los feed es otro cantar necesitando mas antena.
Ahora mismo Hispasat tiene unos 730 canales con los enlaces de eventos deportivos y otros actos emitiendo (los que se sintonizan en un receptor normal con busqueda ciega), sin contar por debajo de SR1500, limite del equipo usado.

 

[Analoguesat]

The TRIAX arm is fixed at the lower end with a horizontal bolt and a vertical one. The horizontal one leaves one or two mm play. I will check if it can be remedied. As this arm is also hollow, it cannot be tightened much as it will bend. And for Hispasat the dish is leaning forward by 4°, so water can accumulate in the arm…..

A couple of mm of play is more than enough to lose your signal if it moves by a bird sitting on it eyc.

Cut a block of wood down, drill a hole through it a bit wider than the bolt & slide it down inside the tubing. That will brace the tubing internally & allow you to tighten the bolts properly.


I also reckon you are wasting your time trying for these last 2 tp - I dont think your receiver can ever see them, in the same way that most receivers give no signal on 16/32 APSK or DVB-S2X modulations.

 

[a33]

No, no, no! On the left of my comments you can find my location: Netherlands. Someone in Essex (see previous pages) had a signal on 11491, 11496, albeit weak.

OK, sorry. I misunderrstood, then.
Glad that is no issue, then!

Greetz,
A33

 

[brother9]

.
There are problems of interference with mobile, DECT phones, simply our normal receivers do not understand the emissions of these 2 TP's.
The BER (level of errors) is triggered in the Dreambox800 to the maximum, some photos.

These 2 TP's without the proper receiver (already commented), can not tune them, they do not give signal, I see them perfectly in the spectrum analyzer with very good levels, but as I indicated, in a normal receiver, they have no signal, that you see, similar to the tp's in DVB-S2X, that's the way it is, you do not have to go wrong, it does not matter how many miracles you can perform with the antenna and see that you need many miracles.
You can not tune in.

11491V7522.- Octagon SF4008/Octagon SX88 and TBS..... OK.
11497H7884.- Octagon SF4008/Octagon SX88 and TBS.... OK.

Hispasat with 50cm, even less, does not have problems with commercial channels, the feed is another song needing more antenna.
Right now Hispasat has about 730 channels with links to sporting events and other acts broadcasting (those tuned into a normal receiver with blind search), not counting below SR1500, limit of equipment used.
---------
No son problemas de interferencias con moviles, telefonos DECT, simplemente nuestros receptores normales no entienden las emisiones de estos 2 TP's.
El BER (nivel de errores) se dispara en la Dreambox800 al maximo, unas fotos.

Esos 2 TP's sin el receptor adecuado (ya comentado), no los puede sintonizar, no dan señal, los veo perfectamente en el analizador de espectro con muy buenos niveles, pero como indico, en un receptor normal, no tienen señal, no entiende lo que ve, similar a las tp's en DVB-S2X, es asi, no hay que dar mal vueltas, da igual los milagros que pueda realizar con la antena y mira que necesitas muchos milagros.
No los puede sintonizar.

11491V7522.- Octagon SF4008/Octagon SX88 and TBS..... OK.
11497H7884.- Octagon SF4008/Octagon SX88 and TBS.... OK.

Hispasat con 50cm, incluso menos, no tiene problemas con canales comerciales, los feed es otro cantar necesitando mas antena.
Ahora mismo Hispasat tiene unos 730 canales con los enlaces de eventos deportivos y otros actos emitiendo (los que se sintonizan en un receptor normal con busqueda ciega), sin contar por debajo de SR1500, limite del equipo usado.

I went on the ladder onto the roof today before the showers and fiddled with the LNB and arm. N.B. A STONE under the arm prevents it from moving.
1) I moved the stone so that the arm was UP a bit: minimal change on BOM (11503H1667) signal: 74%. ALL other freq. are now 99%.
2) Putting a block of wood into the arm is a good idea, and maybe some rubber around it should fix it properly.
3) I pushed LNB forward a bit (2 cm) in its holder: not much change on BOM. Angle and distance of LNB looking at dish is fixed by manufacturer.
4) Yesterday BOM was 53-66%, but it got to 79% during the night!! Explanation?
5) I saw a brief signal on 11491/7522 (Castilla La Mancha) SIX times now! Less than a second. And as I was watching it EAGERLY I saw the quality indication at 70% !?
70 !! So we are on the right track. I DO GET A SIGNAL FOR A FRACTION OF A SECOND! That is not yet “watching a program”….. Why only a fraction of a second?
6) When I disconnect the telephone system from the mains, there is no change on 11491/11496/11503.
7) The REDLINE tuner allows SR=1000 as a minimum.
8) I do NOT have a PC connected to TV nor a spectrum analyzer nor any other sophisticated apparatus.
9) I can do the “threads test” to check if the dish has any warping. Cannot do it in rain.
10) Calculations? f=76 cm. But LNB to dish=72cm. Can YOU tell me how many mm from top and bottom of dish to F? (wide x high=98x110 operating area).
11) Should signals from other near satellites be found on this fixed dish (multiple LNBs)?

 

[RimaNTSS]

Can YOU tell me how many mm from top and bottom of dish to F? (wide x high=98x110 operating area).

Without knowing the depth of the dish (with the precision up to 0.1mm) it is impossible to tell location of "F". Wide and high can only give you such an important parameter of the dish as it's offset angle, which in your antenna case is 27* (if 980x1100mm is correct size of the working area). So, there we see mismatch of the offset angle you mentioned earlier and calculated one.
Added later: But what is funny..... producer claims the working area of the TD110 1000x1100mm which would give an offset angle 24.6*, but, at the same time they announce an offset angle of this dish to be 26*! That tells something about professionalism of the TRIAX company as such! At least I have this impression. And, in addition to this, they make such a stupid adjustment mechanisms to their antennas that makes tuning process very painful.
Add #2:

1) I moved the stone so that the arm was UP a bit: minimal change on BOM (11503H1667) signal: 74%. ALL other freq. are now 99%.

If there is change of the signal that means you had elevation set not properly.

3) I pushed LNB forward a bit (2 cm) in its holder: not much change on BOM. Angle and distance of LNB looking at dish is fixed by manufacturer.

After all those mismatches do you still believe manufacturer could place LNB-holder in the right position? I would not be so optimistic.

4) Yesterday BOM was 53-66%, but it got to 79% during the night!! Explanation?

Usually it is because there are variations of the signal level during the day and also depends on the weather conditions. Another reason for such a variations could be fact that dish is not tuned properly.

 

[brother9]

Without knowing the depth of the dish (with the precision up to 0.1mm) it is impossible to tell location of "F". Wide and high can only give you such an important parameter of the dish as it's offset angle, which in your antenna case is 27* (if 980x1100mm is correct size of the working area). So, there we see mismatch of the offset angle you mentioned earlier and calculated one.
Added later: But what is funny..... producer claims the working area of the TD110 1000x1100mm which would give an offset angle 24.6*, but, at the same time they announce an offset angle of this dish to be 26*! That tells something about professionalism of the TRIAX company as such! At least I have this impression. And, in addition to this, they make such a stupid adjustment mechanisms to their antennas that makes tuning process very painful.
Add #2:
If there is change of the signal that means you had elevation set not properly.

After all those mismatches do you still believe manufacturer could place LNB-holder in the right position? I would not be so optimistic.
Usually it is because there are variations of the signal level during the day and also depends on the weather conditions. Another reason for such a variations could be fact that dish is not tuned properly.

Threshold.
Last night (and I mean NIGHT…) BOM (11503H1667) signal gradually increased from 78% to 90%. Then I started to watch that signal all the time, and towards the morning it was 96%!! But switching to 11491 and 11496 did not yield a signal.
So question a) is Castilla La Mancha 11491 an all-night signal?
b) I read on Triax.com about their LNB, which has "Image rejection (min.) 45 dB”. What does that mean? Does the LNB not relay signals below a certain threshold? Is that the reason why I never see signals with e.g. 20-40% quality?
So there could actually be a signal on 11491, but it does not get through?
c) I noticed a very brief signal on 11491 SIX times. Although it is VERY brief, I am not imagining it (I hope…LOL). Once I saw 70%.
However, maybe –just maybe- it could be a switching error/characteristic of the tuner? Ideas are welcome.
Depth of dish = 9 cm. Calculated f=76.2 cm. Correct? Measured dish-LNB= 72 cm.

 

[Mickha]

Analoguesat posted that your receiver can't get 11491, so why are you still searching for it?
Have you checked, on lyngsat, what format 11491 is broadcasting in, and then tried searching for what that means?
DVB-S2 PLS combo 2388
It is even discussed, in another thread, on this forum:
Advice Needed - OCTAGON SF4008

You would be far better to focus on the transponders you can get, and maximise those signal quality levels.

 

[brother9]

Analoguesat posted that your receiver can't get 11491, so why are you still searching for it?
Have you checked, on lyngsat, what format 11491 is broadcasting in, and then tried searching for what that means?
DVB-S2 PLS combo 2388
It is even discussed, in another thread, on this forum:
Advice Needed - OCTAGON SF4008

You would be far better to focus on the transponders you can get, and maximise those signal quality levels.

Thank you. I read the thread. Too technical or specific for me.
As for UHTV, I would expect NOT to be able to get an image, but at least I get a signal. If it is so new and difficult to get (as mentioned in the link you gave), then would I have to believe that ALL of Castilla La Mancha CANNOT get this FTA station?? Then why broadcast? Or are all Spaniards in that province so rich that they all bought the latest equipment? If someone in Essex has a signal, shouldn’t I get it as well? Tururu (Madrid) wrote that the tuner cannot process the signal and does not show it. That would also mean that I was mistaken SIX times to see a signal. HM. OK. ALL other freq now have 99% signals.

 

[Tururu]

...... Tururu (Madrid) wrote that the tuner cannot process the signal and does not show it. That would also mean that I was mistaken SIX times to see a signal. HM. OK. ALL other freq now have 99% signals.

.
You can have a "spark" signal, that does not mean you can process it, 6 times and all you want.
Signal indicators are not valid between devices, see if it has a level in dB.
If you want to understand, perfect, if you do not want to understand, perfect.
When you do have time, look at the photos from post#68
-----------
Puedes tener un "chispazo" de señal, eso no significa que la puedas procesar, 6 veces y todas las que quieras.
Los indicadores de señal no son validos entre equipos, mira si tiene nivel en dB.
Si lo quieres entender, perfecto, si no lo quieres entender, perfecto.
Cuando tengas tiempo, mira las fotos del post#68
Advice Needed - missing frequencies 30W

This is what I see with a receiver similar to the one you have (for example).
As you see, in the photo, to the right, in the TP's that you are looking for, I do not have a signal / SNR, but I have AGC quality and the BER (level of errors) is 1024 maximum (it does not measure more), it does not understand what it sees .
--------
Esto es lo que veo con un receptor similar al que tienes (por ejemplo).
Como ves, en la foto, a la derecha, en los TP's que buscas no tengo señal/SNR, pero tengo calidad/AGC y el BER (nivel de errores) esta a tope 1024 (no mide mas), no entiende lo que ve.


Now some photos of another receiver that if you understand what you see and have a very good signal.
Ahora unas fotos de otro receptor que si entiende lo que ve y tiene muy buena señal.

..... If it is so new and difficult to get (as mentioned in the link you gave), then would I have to believe that ALL of Castilla La Mancha CANNOT get this FTA station?? Then why broadcast? Or are all Spaniards in that province so rich that they all bought the latest equipment? ......

.
All in Spain we tie the dogs with longaniza of how rich we are, what a lot of unemployment we have.
--------
Todos en españa atamos los perros con longaniza de lo ricos que somos, menuda tasa de paro tenemos.

To power the DTT (Digital Terrestrial Television) repeaters and other equipment for example.
Before with PowerVU (600€) equipment, it was often worth every equipment, now much cheaper.
Errors are allowed as usual.
------
Para alimentar a los repetidores de TDT (Television Digital Terrestre) y otros equipos por ejemplo.
Antes con equipos PowerVU (600€), menudo dineral valia cada equipo, ahora mucho mas barato.
Se admiten errores como siempre.

... If someone in Essex has a signal, shouldn’t I get it as well?....

Now you have a little signal, only €85 make the difference.
Apart from the support of the LNB, it is worth 3€ and not what you have.
-----
Ya falta poco para que tengas señal, solo 85€ marcan la diferencia.
Aparte del soporte del LNB, que vale 3€ y no lo que tienes.



PS: .
PD: .

 

[RimaNTSS]

Depth of dish = 9 cm. Calculated f=76.2 cm. Correct? Measured dish-LNB= 72 cm.

Correct or not correct depends on the place where you measure the depth of the dish. Is that i n the middle of it or it is the deepest point? What do you mean by "f" ? From where to where "f' is measured?
Want more fun? There is a screenshot of another official TD110 antenna datasheet where you can see that the size of the working area of the dish is 100x105cm and offset angle 26* . Complete nonsense! I apologies to those who maybe have hard feelings about TRIAX antennas, especially @st1 , as antennas are made in DK . But from what I see, the company do not care about giving correct information to costumers. Design of the feedarm- crap, design of the elevation mechanism- crap, location of the LNB-not right. Besides, they sell 1m antenna pretending it is 1.1m- unhonesty.

 

[archive10]

There is a screenshot View attachment 110407 of another official TD110 antenna datasheet where you can see that the size of the working area of the dish is 100x105cm and offset angle 26* . Complete nonsense! I apologies to those who maybe have hard feelings about TRIAX antennas, especially @st1 , as antennas are made in DK .

In fact, the hardware is 100 x 105, but as we both now, this is not the *effective* area of the dish. I seem to remember a spec somewhere that it was designed to have an effective width of just 97-98 cm... So the reflecting area of a *real* 110 cm dish (with a working area of 110x110 projected) is 28% larger than a 97 cm dish... No wonder it is tempting to call the dish a 110 cm one...

And no worries - I have no particular vested inerested in Triax antennas just because that happen to be made in DK.
Lots of questionable stuff gets produced in DK.

 

[a33]

Want more fun? There is a screenshot of another official TD110 antenna datasheet where you can see that the size of the working area of the dish is 100x105cm and offset angle 26* . Complete nonsense!

Well, Rima, I'm no expert on triax dishes, but is it possible to do a string test on the working area of the TD110?
Maybe the rim of the dish, though perfectly flat at the front of the dish, has different 'heights' to the working area of the dish?
I've seen a picture of such a dish once, and it would explain a lot.


For that reason I would prefer the calculation of offset angle by measuring the deepest point of the dish (compared to the height-dimensions of the dish). That surface would garanteedly be parabolic, I presume.

For the calculation you need hight of the dish, depth of deepest point, and location of deepest point (all measured at working area).
So does Parabola2 program (forget the program for focalpoint calculation; it it highly inprecise due to assumption of bottom at vertex).

Or, alternatively: measure distances of top to bottom of the dish (=height of the dish), bottom to deepest point (measured AT the dish!), and deepest point to top of the dish. (Thus the measurement of the fictitional triangle of the dish: Top-Bottom-DeepestPoint; all measured at working area of course.)
From that you can also calculate offset angle.


Greetz,
A33

 

[RimaNTSS]

@a33 Of course, height of the rim (if it is higher than WOD) must be taken into account in measurements of the WOD and depth of the dish. Before measurements are taken place it is very advisable to do the string-test and, if needed, correction of the shape, other-ways measurements will not be correct. And if measurements are not correct than calculations will also be wrong.
It is basically does not matter what is the depth of the dish to find out offset angle. For offset angle calculations horizontal and vertical dimensions of the WOD is enough.
Measurement of the depth of the dish is the tricky one, I mean not so easy to measure it precisely. Even more difficult is to find exact location of the deepest point. That is why I like Parabola6 program where only 3 measurements should be done for further calculations. And depth of the dish is measured from the point where horizontal and vertical lines cross each other (yes, it is not the deepest point of the dish).

I do not have TD110, other-ways I would measure it.